tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post2359056431401476731..comments2023-03-24T05:41:17.603-07:00Comments on OutsideTheBox: Dawkins is right! His god does not existCliff Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-19982744833569405372009-01-20T21:15:00.000-08:002009-01-20T21:15:00.000-08:00Thank you, Nick. I have attempted to preserve the ...Thank you, Nick. I have attempted to preserve the value and authority of all the Scriptures, while recognizing the unconcealed limitations of the text. Despite this, it seems when many of my Christian friends read or listen to me, they think my purpose is to tear the Scriptures down.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-55773238449429958312009-01-19T12:16:00.000-08:002009-01-19T12:16:00.000-08:00Cliff,I really appreciate this post aboutyour read...Cliff,<BR/>I really appreciate this post about<BR/>your reading of scripture. I really do think the progressive revelation<BR/>understanding is vital, and apt. <BR/>I do appreciate your phrasing of the place of scripture for the christian.<BR/>It really is more honest and lest abstract than the hyper-fundamentalist<BR/>way of talking about it.<BR/>thanks again,<BR/>nick wattsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-66735250197855006732008-07-06T07:29:00.000-07:002008-07-06T07:29:00.000-07:00I should add that it is important to remember that...I should add that it is important to remember that oral traditional fork-lore and myth were acceptable "containers" of truth for the ancients, much more so than our literary instincts would allow today. Still, the writers were recording using their imperfect human lens.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-47312824958673490882008-07-06T07:26:00.000-07:002008-07-06T07:26:00.000-07:00Hi Psi,Good questions; thank you for raising them....Hi Psi,<BR/><BR/>Good questions; thank you for raising them. (I actually expected those kinds of questions from some of my fellow-believers. But they seem to either be disinterested, or they have just written me off.)<BR/><BR/>What I am saying is that the picture Moses, and other Old Testament writers had of God was imperfect. The human endeavor of discovering God is recorded for us (in part) in the Bible. It is a journal of progressive revelation. So if you want to understand God and his character, you will obviously weight more heavily those later writers who benefited from all that had gone before. Paul says that all of the Old Testament (and New) is “useful” for training, correction, etc. And I do find it all to be just as he said. However, it seems clear to me that Moses and Samuel, and David, etc. were looking through a very imperfect lens, and worked on some assumption that were incorrect, incomplete, or inaccurate. Still, God encouraged (inspired!) them to record their observations, and their interpretations, even though they often ended up painting him in a rather unflattering light. Little by little, we (those men and women who seek God) came to know and understand him better.<BR/><BR/>Are the Old Testament tales true? That is a little hard to answer. With many I would have to say, I don’t know. Some are no doubt mythical. Some are traditional oral history, folk-lore. Others may represent actual events, but written from the perspective of those early seekers of God with their incomplete understanding of his character.<BR/><BR/>Does this help?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-18565090941636085252008-07-06T06:49:00.000-07:002008-07-06T06:49:00.000-07:00Hi Cliff,Sorry if this is awfully naive but are yo...Hi Cliff,<BR/><BR/>Sorry if this is awfully naive but are you saying that the old testament tales where god is pretty nasty are not true, or that he isn't really nasty in them?<BR/><BR/>Or that they are old myths and not real descriptions of what your god actually did?<BR/><BR/>Isn't there plenty of scape goating, genocide, etc. <BR/><BR/>Isn't one poor guy killled and then sentenced to an eternity of torture for tripping and touching the ark of the covenant?<BR/><BR/>I am asking from a position of ignorance and not trying to be clever.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>PsiPsiloiordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235629211359287564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-18000496878137567342008-06-30T10:41:00.000-07:002008-06-30T10:41:00.000-07:00I'm not a subtle guy. :)I'm not a subtle guy. :)RBHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13562135000111792590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-86481218992051977072008-06-29T21:12:00.000-07:002008-06-29T21:12:00.000-07:00RBH,Not only are you correct, you read between the...RBH,<BR/><BR/>Not only are you correct, you read between the lines and captured my exact intended meaning. Thank you for making the point explicitly.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-25480661093609274412008-06-29T20:43:00.000-07:002008-06-29T20:43:00.000-07:00Cliff wroteMany have wondered why it is that the l...Cliff wrote<BR/><BR/><I>Many have wondered why it is that the leader of the Christian faith, Jesus himself, never wrote a book. The answer is quite simple for me. If Jesus had a written a book, the church would have fallen into worship of that book. It would be venerated. It would be legalistically applied.</I><BR/><BR/>Um. It didn't take Jesus writing a book to produce a Bible that is often legalistically applied and that is idolized and darn near worshiped by not a few Christians around my part of the world.RBHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13562135000111792590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-10493319425035916642008-06-26T09:53:00.000-07:002008-06-26T09:53:00.000-07:00tom said @ June 25, 2008 10:59 AM... who is to say...tom said @ June 25, 2008 10:59 AM<BR/><EM>... who is to say that other, more fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible are wrong?</EM><BR/><BR/>‘... any interpretation that sees the New Testament or Jesus as essentially advocates of love, peace, and forgiveness must rely on an ultimately unverifiable rationale for the selection of what counts as representative texts. Such a selection is no more verifiable than the selection of violent views, and the ultimate theological grounds for pacifist actions by Christians are no more verifiable than the grounds for violent ones.’ p216<BR/><BR/>”Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence” Hector Avalos, Prometheus Books 2005Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-53765489928882441962008-06-25T10:59:00.000-07:002008-06-25T10:59:00.000-07:00While Isaac illustrates some of what you might cal...While Isaac illustrates some of what you might call extreme examples, they aren't too rare. There are -phobes, weirdos, and outright dangerous people who use the Bible to support their behavior and philosophies. You are correct that the Bible was written by several different men of different cultures across time so it is bound to have several different hermeneutical interpretations. While it seems your brand of theism is palatable to moderate Christians (and therefore why you get criticism from conservative Christians and atheists who are more extreme), who is to say that other, more fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible are wrong? Has present human law and culture now trumped the law of the OT? If so, was Jesus/Christianity necessary for that?Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15462218340570164741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-42649945054702466262008-06-25T10:24:00.000-07:002008-06-25T10:24:00.000-07:00Cliff, are you an evangelical, or a moderate?Accor...Cliff, are you an evangelical, or a moderate?<BR/><BR/>According to 2 Timothy 3, this persecution you get is just par for the course. As for me, I guess I'm one of those ones "having a form of godliness, but denying its power", going from bad to worse. ;-)Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15462218340570164741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-82672159249324531242008-06-24T21:43:00.000-07:002008-06-24T21:43:00.000-07:00Strawman? well, that might be a bit strong.More li...<EM>Strawman? well, that might be a bit strong.</EM><BR/>More like not what you meant - when we note the proportion in the survey who wish to take the Holy Book literally, word for word, the "easy target" is not being constructed by the "skeptic friends", it's being presented by literalists.<BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>I do not know of a single Christian (not even the most ardent fundamentalist) who believes in and worships the God Dawkins describes.</EM><BR/><BR/>Hmmm.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/" REL="nofollow">Falwell apologizes to gays, feminists, lesbians</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html" REL="nofollow"> HURRICANE KATRINA DESTROYS NEW ORLEANS<BR/>DAYS BEFORE "SOUTHERN DECADENCE" 8/31/05</A><BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>... he is speaking of a God I do not worship, and that I do not believe has ever existed.</EM><BR/>I suspect "The God Delusion" also says something that applies to your particular belief.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-82204138687324301822008-06-24T18:11:00.000-07:002008-06-24T18:11:00.000-07:00Isaac, Thanks for the link to the Pew Forum. I ho...Isaac, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link to the Pew Forum. I hope to spend some time looking at that survey soon (this is a very busy work week for me!)<BR/><BR/> I can see the ambiguity in that paragraph you refer to. I did mean “as they [skeptic friends] perceive him.” Strawman? well, that might be a bit strong. Their view (as I indicate in my post) is not without a Biblical base. But that is where interpretation of the Scriptures comes into play. I do not know of a single Christian (not even the most ardent fundamentalist) who believes in and worships the God Dawkins describes. But Moses does give grounds for his (Dawkins’) perception. <BR/><BR/> I believe that many of my Christian friends are inconsistent. They want the “safety” of a literal, inerrant book. But they end up doing some wild dancing around the O.T. stories that portray God in ways quite different from the N.T. understanding. So it is reasonable that people like Dawkins pickup on their literalist views and attack the God that seems to logically follow. <BR/><BR/>As you can see, my view of the Scriptures is not literalist/inerrantist. And so, when Dawkins speaks derisively of the God he “sees” in the O.T., he is speaking of a God I do not worship, and that I do not believe has ever existed.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-61995772801551415522008-06-24T09:42:00.000-07:002008-06-24T09:42:00.000-07:00Because of my non-literal interpretations of Genes...<EM>Because of my non-literal interpretations of Genesis, my Christian friends aim their artillery at my “liberal” view of Scripture. They worry that I have abandoned the true faith. Meanwhile, many of my skeptic friends, with whom I interact in cyberspace lob bombs at an easy target, the Christian God, as they perceive him.</EM><BR/><BR/>Too many they's<BR/><BR/>- "as they [Christian friends] perceive him."<BR/><BR/>or <BR/><BR/>- "as they [skeptic friends] perceive him."<BR/><BR/><BR/>If the "easy target" is constructed by the "skeptic friends" then it would be a strawman.<BR/><BR/>If the "easy target" is constructed by the "Christian friends" then it is the "Christian friends" perception of the Christian God that is being criticised.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Question 37 p235 "And would you say that [Holy book] is to be taken literally, word for word..."<BR/><A HREF="http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-topline.pdf" REL="nofollow">PEW FORUM ON RELIGION & PUBLIC LIFE U.S. RELIGIOUS LANDSCAPE SURVEY FINAL TOPLINE (pdf)</A>Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-6696704351937550792008-06-24T09:32:00.000-07:002008-06-24T09:32:00.000-07:00"[Paul, writing the inspired book of 1 Corinthians...<I>"[Paul, writing the inspired book of 1 Corinthians, included a little misinformation, then corrected himself, then said he was uncertain because he could not remember (1:14-16); the variations in the reporting of events during the life of Jesus which are found in the Gospels are best understood as resulting from inexact recall of events]."</I><BR/><BR/>My view is that the essays, poetry, historical accounts, laws, prophesy, etc are God inspired, but are revealed via the 'man filter', which corrupts, to some degree. Did Moses have political motives that may have influenced his writings and his portrayal of God?<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, language is far from perfect. And not just language translations from a distant era, but with present day colloquial variations as well.<BR/><BR/>A question often posed is how relevant Paul's writings are to today's world. Cindy in South Dakota studies Paul's writings (currently 1 Corr. 6-8), posts her conclusions on her blog, and asks for comments from readers.<BR/><BR/>Either she <I>has</I> no readers, or they simply choose not to comment. Still she continues to post ...<BR/><BR/>Any takers?<BR/>http://cindyinsd.wordpress.com/Lee Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11032697992689736055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-27472156975482626912008-06-23T18:33:00.000-07:002008-06-23T18:33:00.000-07:00Cliff - the others said, this is an excellent post...Cliff - the others said, this is an excellent post. There are others standing in the midst of the battlefield with you ;).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-20201033722893812702008-06-23T18:05:00.000-07:002008-06-23T18:05:00.000-07:00Yes, that was good Cliff. Thanks.Yes, that was good Cliff. Thanks.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-89150364434020775422008-06-23T14:56:00.000-07:002008-06-23T14:56:00.000-07:00Cliff,I couldn't agree more. Thanks for this exce...Cliff,<BR/><BR/>I couldn't agree more. Thanks for this excellent post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com