tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post2581387657186438442..comments2023-03-24T05:41:17.603-07:00Comments on OutsideTheBox: The problem with Intelligent Design ...Cliff Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-84816811651632916582009-03-30T13:25:00.000-07:002009-03-30T13:25:00.000-07:00cliff > I was not declaring agreement with your...cliff > <EM>I was not declaring agreement with your full statement including your assessment that the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" is "religion". That is your opinion, oft stated, and I do not now agree, nor have I ever agreed.</EM><BR/><BR/>'Well of course it is not teaching biology." March 21, 2009 8:49 PM<BR/><BR/>If "the possible existence of a Designer and Creator" isn't about biology and it isn't about religion - what is it about?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>Some of [Gould's] statements would go along way toward dispelling the resistance to evolution for students who believe it God. ... asking anti-evolutionary preachers to stop preaching what they believe.</EM><BR/><BR/>You're mixing up the completely general case of "students who believe in God" with the very specific problems faced by students whose understanding of their faith requires them to believe dead science - <BR/><BR/>"Around 1830, 1870, and 1930, respectively, Genesis creationism, novelty creationism, and anti-selectionism were discarded, consigned to the large vault of dead science." <BR/><BR/>p22 <A HREF="http://books.google.com/books?id=aRXUp24keucC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Living+with+Darwin#PPA22,M1" REL="nofollow">Living with Darwin</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>If the students understanding of their faith requires them to believe dead science then teaching modern science will undermine their faith.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-10088543055197698822009-03-27T22:17:00.000-07:002009-03-27T22:17:00.000-07:00Isaac,You must spend a lot of time poring over the...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>You must spend a lot of time poring over the comment thread! Now I must clarify my words for you. When I said "I know", I was agreeing with your objection that the analogy did not fit perfectly, that I had in fact been been talking the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator", and not "applied science". (This was the basis of your objection.) I was not declaring agreement with your full statement including your assessment that the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" is "religion". That is your opinion, oft stated, and I do not now agree, nor have I ever agreed. Please.<BR/><BR/>When I talk about using Gould's remarks, I am referring to the many things he has said about the inability of science, particularly evolutionary science, to prove or disprove the possible existence of a Designer/Creator. I thought that was clear. I know you have no objection to his comments on the general limits of science. You apparently do object to his comments about theism. Why do we have to continually cover the same ground??<BR/><BR/><I>cliff > The preachers are Creationists, or did you not know that?<BR/>Isaac > I try not to presume.</I><BR/><BR/>Are you serious? Are you telling me that you did not know that the great majority of evangelical preachers are anti-evolutionary? Wow. No wonder you think your concept of "change the preaching" is such a simple and great idea. I gave you credit for being more informed than that. Perhaps now you will understand why your idea is hopeless.<BR/><BR/>Gould, to my knowledge never suggested that creationism and evolution are compatible. In fact, I know of no one who makes such a claim. Gould speaks of the compatibility of theism and evolution. There is a difference. Some of his statements would go along way toward dispelling the resistance to evolution for students who believe it God. I think that would be a good thing. And you, apparently, think that would be a waste of time. Yet you have no other solution in mind beside asking anti-evolutionary preachers to stop preaching what they believe. <BR/><BR/>I'll let you have the final word ...Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-67868300107917048252009-03-27T20:09:00.000-07:002009-03-27T20:09:00.000-07:00cliff > Your premise is mistaken. ... I don't c...cliff > <EM>Your premise is mistaken. ... I don't consider it about religion at all.</EM><BR/><BR/>When I wrote "you've been talking the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" (we call that religion)" you quoted those words and answered - "I KNOW! You dismiss my argument again with a statement of the obvious." March 26, 2009 10:04 AM<BR/><BR/>What you considered a statement of the obvious yesterday, you don't seem to agree with at all today.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>I have suggested that we could use statements made by atheistic evolutionary biologist, Steven J Gould, and you still object.</EM><BR/><BR/>I had no objection to "a quote from Steven Jay Gould about the limits of science" March 26, 2009 9:35 AM<BR/><BR/>I'll talk about quoting "the compatibility of faith and evolutionary science" below.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>The preachers are Creationists, or did you not know that?</EM><BR/><BR/>I try not to presume.<BR/><BR/>"Creationists" seems to cover a variety of beliefs, but if the preachers and children believe some of the things <A HREF="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html" REL="nofollow">mentioned by Gould as examples of "scientific creationism"</A> it would be <EM>seriously misleading</EM> to suggest to them that Gould regarded their beliefs as compatible with "evolutionary science".<BR/><BR/>"I am both angry at and amused by the creationists; but mostly I am deeply sad." <BR/><BR/>Stephen Jay Gould <A HREF="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html" REL="nofollow">Evolution as Fact and Theory</A>Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-37684298436535711662009-03-27T15:21:00.000-07:002009-03-27T15:21:00.000-07:00Isaac,... a statement you have acknowledged is obv...Isaac,<BR/><BR/><I>... a statement you have acknowledged is obviously not about biology and is obviously about religion ... </I><BR/><BR/>Your premise is mistaken. To make a statement that there are theistic evolutionists and atheistic evolutionists, and that evolution leads to neither belief nor non-belief in a creator/designer is not "obviously" about religion. I don't consider it about religion at all. I have suggested that we could use statements made by atheistic evolutionary biologist, Steven J Gould, and you still object.<BR/><BR/>Your answer, "Change the preaching" is nice, but completely unrealistic. The preachers are Creationists, or did you not know that? From where I sit, the preaching will not change across the board in evangelical America for at least another 50 years. So we will, for the next 50 years, have more students entering the biology classroom predisposed to disbelieve their teacher because they think evolution is atheistic. I am suggesting that we simply inform them that it is not.<BR/><BR/>This discussion, it seems, is leading no where, so lets just call a truce, okay?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-77202514131299686392009-03-27T08:04:00.000-07:002009-03-27T08:04:00.000-07:00I didn't ask whether they were the same thing - pl...I didn't ask whether they were the same thing - please answer the question I asked:<BR/><BR/>If a statement you have acknowledged is obviously not about biology and is obviously about religion were accepted in the biology classroom then what possible reason could there be for not accepting other peoples statements about religion in the biology classroom?<BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>evolution = atheism</EM> No<BR/><EM>highly resistant</EM> Yes<BR/><EM>dispel the notion</EM> Upstream<BR/><EM>better not to try</EM> No<BR/><EM>break down resistance</EM> Change the preachingIsaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-40115942137997916832009-03-26T13:07:00.000-07:002009-03-26T13:07:00.000-07:00Isaac,Acknowledging the possible existence of a De...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>Acknowledging the possible existence of a Designer and Creator is hardly the same thing as teaching ID or Creationism. <BR/><BR/>But let's try approaching this from a different angle.<BR/><BR/>Millions of Americans believe that "evolution = atheism". Do you think their assessment is correct? If you believe it is correct, you reject clear statements by people like SJ Gould, and there is no need for us to discuss this further.<BR/><BR/>If he/she is convinced that evolution = atheism, do you agree that a person of faith will be highly resistant to the teaching of evolution in a biology classroom?<BR/><BR/>If you agree that "evolution = atheism" is a misconception (as I do, and Gould does, as Ken Miller does, as Francis Collins does, etc.), then how would you propose we dispel the notion in the biology classroom?<BR/><BR/>Or do you feel that it is better not to try? Is it better to use the approach that has gotten us to the point we are today: the only industrialized nation that has a higher rate of evolution denial is Turkey! <BR/><BR/>Give me your idea (if you have one) about how we can break down theisitc resistance to evolution at the High School level?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-84944207170229379342009-03-26T11:38:00.000-07:002009-03-26T11:38:00.000-07:00cliff March 21, 2009 8:49 PM > Well of course i...cliff March 21, 2009 8:49 PM > <EM>Well of course it is not teaching biology.</EM><BR/><BR/><BR/>isaac '... you've been talking [about] the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" (we call that religion).'<BR/><BR/>cliff March 26, 2009 10:04 AM > <EM>I KNOW! You dismiss my argument again with a statement of the obvious.</EM><BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm confident you also know what I'm about to say, but you don't seem to be using that information to evaluate your own reasoning.<BR/><BR/>Why isn't <EM>intelligent design</EM> in the science classroom? Because it isn't science it's religion.<BR/><BR/>Why isn't <EM>special creationism</EM> in the science classroom? Because it isn't science it's religion.<BR/><BR/>If a statement you have acknowledged is obviously not about biology and is obviously about religion were accepted in the biology classroom then what possible reason could there be for not accepting other peoples statements about religion in the biology classroom?Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-67939781019216216552009-03-26T10:24:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:24:00.000-07:00cliff > Please, Isaac, just answer yes or no. I...cliff > <EM>Please, Isaac, just answer yes or no. If a statement intended to disarm a theistic-based resistance to evolution could effectively open thousands of minds to the study of evolution, would that be a good thing?</EM><BR/><BR/>You've asked for a blank check - no.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff (later) > <EM>Tell me, what is the harm in that statement.</EM><BR/><BR/>It isn't about the statement - it's about where you want the statement to be read.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-76140897909981821402009-03-26T10:10:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:10:00.000-07:00cliff > ... the compatibility of faith and evol...<I>cliff > ... the compatibility of faith and evolutionary science ...<BR/><BR/>As you know, that's an open question - it depends on what exactly each faith proclaims and the current state of scientific knowledge.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, you side step the question. Yes, many people have a faith that is wholly incompatible with evolution. That is beside the point. The point of the Gould statements, or the one I offered a few comments back, is that the science of evolution does not presume the existence or non-existence of a Creator/God. Nothing in evolution proves or disproves creation, design, or a Creator or Designer. These questions are beyond the scope of science. And that is why many evolutionary biologists are theists, and many are atheists. <BR/><BR/>Tell me, what is the harm in that statement. And do you not agree that it might be very helpful for some young people to know that?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-79542967407687126762009-03-26T10:04:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:04:00.000-07:00You haven't been talking about "how various [scien...<I>You haven't been talking about "how various [science] lessons might be used out in the real world" (we call that applied science) - you've been talking the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" (we call that religion).</I><BR/><BR/>I KNOW! You dismiss my argument again with a statement of the obvious. My point was that a teacher may step out of his discipline to reinforce his teaching, to maintain student interest, to appeal to learning motivations, etc. The math analogy may not have been the best illustration. Maybe better would be my chemistry teacher who would occasionally tell a non-chemistry related joke for no other reason than to relate to his students, build rapport, and maintain student interest in the class. Was this, in your book, a bad, time-wasting practice? <BR/><BR/>Please, Isaac, just answer yes or no. If a statement intended to disarm a theistic-based resistance to evolution could effectively open thousands of minds to the study of evolution, would that be a good thing?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-20139804357824476902009-03-26T09:35:00.000-07:002009-03-26T09:35:00.000-07:00cliff > ... how various math lessons might be u...cliff > <EM>... how various math lessons might be used out in the real world.</EM><BR/><BR/>You haven't been talking about "how various [science] lessons might be used out in the real world" (we call that applied science) - you've been talking the "possible existence of a Designer and Creator" (we call that religion).<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>... at your disposal is a <BR/>quote from Steven Jay Gould about the limits of science ...</EM><BR/><BR/>That would be a statement about science.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>... the compatibility of faith and evolutionary science ...</EM><BR/><BR/>As you know, that's an open question - it depends on what exactly each faith proclaims and the current state of scientific knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Let's remember that Steven Jay Gould <A HREF="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html" REL="nofollow">simply dismissed</A> "a local and parochial movement, powerful only in the United States among Western nations, and prevalent only among the few sectors of American Protestantism that choose to read the Bible as an inerrant document, literally true in every jot and tittle."Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-50576981014176720412009-03-25T22:11:00.000-07:002009-03-25T22:11:00.000-07:00Isaac,You still refuse to respond to my reasoning....Isaac,<BR/><BR/>You still refuse to respond to my reasoning. Are you suggesting that "good teaching" is "good teaching" even if people do not learn? The best mathematics teachers I ever had were those who took time occasionally to point out how various math lessons might be used out in the real world. It was not teaching math. You would call it a waste of class time. I call it motivation for the student.<BR/><BR/>If you have a biology classroom half full of young people predisposed to turn you off as soon as you mention evolution, and at your disposal is a quote from Steven Jay Gould about the limits of science, and the compatibility of faith and evolutionary science, and if you knew that some of that resistance would go away if you did quote Gould once or twice, and that you would get through to more students and they would learn more ...<BR/><BR/>Really, Isaac, Do you not get it??<BR/><BR/>I am merely suggesting that a 5 minute investment in disarming an antievolution mindset during a 90 hour long biology course might be very worthwhile. Rather than just repeating your mantra — "the biology classroom is not the place to discuss it" — tell me <I>please</I> where my thinking on this matter is wrong.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-38069212931261492952009-03-25T20:51:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:51:00.000-07:00cliff > You have not responded to my central ar...cliff > <EM>You have not responded to my central argument about good teaching disarming opposition to truth.</EM><BR/><BR/>Even in a private school, the physics classroom is not the place to talk about metaphysics, the biology classroom is not the place to talk about "the possible existence of a Designer and Creator" - in the likely absence of a philosophy class that conversation would find a home in <EM>religious studies</EM>.<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is about science - "... science is limited to searching for natural explanations".<BR/><BR/>This is not about science - "...[w]hile some may ultimately have a supernatural cause...".<BR/><BR/>Explaining what science is about is good science teaching - speculating about supernatural causes (can we really pretend that doesn't mean "God"?) isn't science teaching at all.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-43969245687076262102009-03-25T11:52:00.000-07:002009-03-25T11:52:00.000-07:00Isaac,You are correct. There is more than one prob...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>You are correct. There is more than one problem to fix. I am trying to change the perception of believers from within the church. But believe me ... if you, like I, want to see a change in the landscape in America, if you wish to erase the overwhelming disbelief in evolution, the transition will happen much faster if biology is taught in a way that is not perceived as godless. <BR/><BR/>You have not responded to my central argument about good teaching disarming opposition to truth.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-71805588293972439782009-03-25T09:40:00.000-07:002009-03-25T09:40:00.000-07:00cliff > I considered evolution a threat to my f...cliff > <EM>I considered evolution a threat to my faith. I have, since then, come to understand that 1) it was good science, and 2) it was not a threat to my faith.</EM><BR/><BR/>Quite obvious, isn't it: the science hasn't changed, your understanding of your faith changed - change the preaching not the teaching.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-60069042805608491472009-03-24T17:27:00.000-07:002009-03-24T17:27:00.000-07:00Isaac,Maybe I should be more specific. Here is my ...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>Maybe I should be more specific. Here is my own proposed model statement:<BR/><BR/>"Science simply cannot address the question of whether there is a Designer or Creator. There are good evolutionary scientists who believe in a Creator, and there are good evolutionary scientists who do not. The study of evolution makes no attempt to settle the question. <BR/><BR/>"There are many mysteries in biology. While some may ultimately have a supernatural cause, science is limited to searching for natural explanations only. So join me in searching for all the natural explanations we can find."<BR/><BR/>Actually, Steven Jay Gould said some things very similar to this. I would favor using one of his statements on the limits of knowledge when it comes to spiritual truth, or the supernatural. He says it better than I do!Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-25138069779980487482009-03-24T17:16:00.000-07:002009-03-24T17:16:00.000-07:00Isaac: If it's something outside the realm of scie...Isaac: <I>If it's something outside the realm of science why would it have a place in the science classroom?</I><BR/><BR/>For all the reasons I gave you. A teacher is not teaching if his students are not learning. Evolution has been taught in the classroom now for 50 years or more, and still 60% of Americans disbelieve it. Quite obvious, isn't it: teachers are not getting the job done. I am suggesting an approach that might disarm resistance just a bit. Do you disagree with my premise?<BR/><BR/>Here is "a straightforward statement of my experience": When my HS biology teacher taught evolution 40+ years ago, I turned him off. I considered evolution a threat to my faith. I have, since then, come to understand that 1) it was good science, and 2) it was not a threat to my faith. A simple statement like I have proposed might well have sped up my acceptance of evolution by 30 years!<BR/><BR/><I>Would you support a clear statement once or twice a year that it's possible a Designer and Creator does not exist?</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely. Why not? <BR/><BR/>As a result of the methodology your espouse, students of faith who enter the biology classroom feel that they are already getting that message an hour ever day! Of course, they are mistaken. Of course, evolution is not saying that. But that has been the unspoken message to many students. And thus, they close their minds to good science. Do you think this is a good thing?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-21257329043371407452009-03-24T10:48:00.000-07:002009-03-24T10:48:00.000-07:00cliff > I'm talking of a simple, humble admissi...cliff > <EM>I'm talking of a simple, humble admission that science does not have all the answers; that some mysteries may never find natural explanations, in part because of the possibility of supernatural causation, outside the realm of science.</EM><BR/><BR/>If it's something outside the realm of science why would it have a place in the science classroom?<BR/><BR/>Would you support a clear statement once or twice a year that it's possible a Designer and Creator does not exist?<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>To object to this on the premise that "time would no allow" is unreasonable...</EM><BR/><BR/>Actually it was straightforward statement of my experience.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-59036738517676783102009-03-23T21:52:00.000-07:002009-03-23T21:52:00.000-07:00Isaac: I've never had a science teacher yet who ha...Isaac: <I>I've never had a science teacher yet who had time in their lesson to talk about the possible existence (or non-existence) of "a Designer and Creator" ...</I><BR/><BR/>Oh I have. In fact, for what I have in mind, all science teachers have time. I do not have in mind the teaching of ID, which I obviously oppose. I'm talking of a simple, humble admission that science does not have all the answers; that some mysteries may never find natural explanations, in part because of the possibility of supernatural causation, outside the realm of science. Such an admission would:<BR/><BR/>1) take no more than a minute or two, maybe repeated once or twice during a term, and <BR/><BR/>2) break down the suspicion and resistance to science that many young people of faith bring to the science classroom, and open their ears to hear what science <I>can</I> demonstrate.<BR/><BR/>To object to this on the premise that "time would no allow" is unreasonable, and betrays the very "philosophical correctness" that puts many people of faith into an unfortunate defensive mindset. It merely perpetuates the divide and exacerbates the hostility.<BR/><BR/>Any good teacher will look for ways to disarm resistance to their teaching, and create fertility of mind, and an openness to new understandings. This is the art of teaching.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-7043268023185619242009-03-23T12:38:00.000-07:002009-03-23T12:38:00.000-07:00cliff > But then I've never had a science teach...cliff > <EM>But then I've never had a science teacher yet who could avoid crossing the invisible line between science and philosophy. The two disciplines are inseparable.</EM><BR/><BR/>My experience is a straightforward contradiction of your assertion - I've never had a science teacher yet who had time in their lesson to talk about the possible existence (or non-existence) of "a Designer and Creator" - they were science teachers because they were excited to teach science.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"This publication ... provides information about the role that evolution plays in modern biology and the reasons why only scientifically based explanations should be included in public school science courses." <BR/><BR/>xi, Preface "<A HREF="http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876&page=R1" REL="nofollow">Science, Evolution, and Creationism (2008)</A>", National Academy of SciencesIsaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-70111271509833981522009-03-21T20:49:00.000-07:002009-03-21T20:49:00.000-07:00Well of course it is not teaching biology.But then...Well of course it is not teaching biology.<BR/><BR/>But then I've never had a science teacher yet who could avoid crossing the invisible line between science and philosophy. The two disciplines are inseparable.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-53988096696818053972009-03-21T20:29:00.000-07:002009-03-21T20:29:00.000-07:00I asked a clear direct question - Do you think tha...I asked a clear direct question - Do you think that talking about the possible existence of a Designer and Creator is teaching biology?<BR/><BR/>I think you have restated and expanded upon your original opinion without answering my simple question.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-71325367319115120592009-03-21T20:08:00.000-07:002009-03-21T20:08:00.000-07:00Isaac,The very words you cited— "The story of salv...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>The very words you cited— "The story of salvation by the cross makes no sense against a background of evolutionary naturalism"—betrays a myopic Christianity, in my opinion. That would be because I see the Christian teaching of salvation to be entirely consistent with evolutionary naturalism. In fact, the concept of evolutionary naturalism excites me as a Christian, thought admittedly it has stretched the more conservative orthodox views I was raised in. These adjustments in understanding are, in my opinion, necessary for Christianity. What we <I>believe</I> must come into harmony with what we <I>know</I>.<BR/><BR/><I>Do you think that talking about the possible existence of a Designer and Creator is teaching biology?</I> <BR/><BR/>An appropriate dose of humility might prompt a biology teacher to speak of mysteries that remain in his discipline (the Cambrian explosion, or abiogenesis, are examples), and that even as we search for every natural explanation we can find, the possibility exists that some supernatural super-intellect may be responsible for some aspects of the evolutionary rise of life, or the Big Bang. Given that such a possibility may be true, is it really somehow "more scientifically correct" to ignore it, to never mention it?<BR/><BR/>High School biology teachers could do much to diffuse the unfortunate evolution warfare in our culture. Rather than ignoring the 60% of Americans who disbelieve evolution, they could 1) acknowledge the possibility of the supernatural, and then by contrast 2) teach that the nature of science is to pursue naturalistic explanations wherever they might exist. I see no conflict between the two. But while certain secularists insist upon hush hushing number 1, their voice will never be heard by some on number 2.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-1431679053890551052009-03-21T19:25:00.000-07:002009-03-21T19:25:00.000-07:00(Note: I'm not trying to link you to ID - I...(Note: I'm not trying to link you to ID - I'm asking you to be clear.)<BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>This entire blogsite stands in opposition to his myopic version of Christianity.</EM><BR/><BR/>Just in this discussion I can see that you object to his political activism - but what do you mean by "in opposition to his myopic version of Christianity"?<BR/><BR/>(Having read two of Johnson's books I don't think he's at all clear about what his version of Christianity is.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff > <EM>I would like to think that high school biology teachers have the option of telling students that evolution does not rule out the possible existence of a Designer and Creator, but that we will likely never find him through the scientific method.</EM><BR/><BR/>Do you think that talking about the possible existence of a Designer and Creator is teaching biology?Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-20458259248702488692009-03-11T09:51:00.000-07:002009-03-11T09:51:00.000-07:00And, of course, I totally disagree with Phillip Jo...And, of course, I totally disagree with Phillip Johnson. This entire blogsite stands in opposition to his myopic version of Christianity.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.com