tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post56967162779527219..comments2023-03-24T05:41:17.603-07:00Comments on OutsideTheBox: Reasons: V. The Existence of EvilCliff Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-41245600859223404972010-08-07T12:40:45.335-07:002010-08-07T12:40:45.335-07:00Mike,
I think your "immediate thoughts on th...Mike,<br /><br />I think your "immediate thoughts on the matter" are right on! Thank you for sharing them.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-46652911947851533402010-08-07T09:05:59.718-07:002010-08-07T09:05:59.718-07:00I don’t know much about Anne Rice. I knew she wro...I don’t know much about Anne Rice. I knew she wrote “Interview with the Vampire” and other Vampire stuff. And I thought I heard that she was a Christian. Anyway, I just read some more about her to figure out what you two were talking about. I guess you’re talking about her leaving Christianity. I read her reasons why and I must say I can understand her feelings. But it seems she’s not leaving Jesus though. So if I’m not misunderstanding her, to me this may just be a matter of semantics. She’s not leaving Jesus so she’s still a disciple of Jesus. Maybe she just doesn’t want to be identified with a “group” that is really “all over the place” anyway. I’m guessing there may be some “Christians” out there who are bashing her. And that would really just give her fuel for her fire. Just my immediate thoughts on the matter.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-76334552789189522702010-08-03T14:44:15.755-07:002010-08-03T14:44:15.755-07:00Like a Child,
“I view most evil as just being par...Like a Child,<br /><br /><i>“I view most evil as just being part of the natural process of life and remnants of evolution - particularly with some of the moral behaviors.”</i><br />Yep. Me too. That is one reason why, for me, the very existence of evil suggests there must be a cosmic tension, and thus a good God. Nevertheless, we who extol the virtues of this almighty <i>and</i> lovingly good Creator are called upon to account for this life history, strewn with the tearing of flesh, the tears of bereaved mothers, the death and disease and pain-filled privation of countless animals and sentient beings, not to speak of the incredible waste of thousands upon thousands of extinct species. The story of the cosmos is one of violence, death, and endless decay. And, apparently, the Creator designed it thus. It is no wonder to me that this is the most frequently cited rationale for unbelief. Evolution actually helps us understand it in a different light, but it does not, for me, fully ameliorate the issue.<br /><br /><i>“Why is it so hard for some to believe, including myself.”</i> <br />Great question. I think it is a struggle for you (and me!) to maintain faith because neither of us is satisfied with stock Christian answers. We allow ourselves to think deeply, and go where others fear to go. But I genuinely believe that a faith tested and examined in these ways will go on to be a more reliable, robust and real faith. I will be satisfied with nothing less!<br /><br />Anne Rice shows courage. And I identify with her in much of what she is saying. Those of us who appreciate and love her must be vocal!<br /><br />If you have trouble identifying with your physician husband’s struggle with evil, just think about the 2,000 mothers who buried the malaria torn bodies of their little babies today. And the 2,000 more tomorrow. And the next day. And the next.<br /><br />But don’t stop with such considerations. Maintain your trust in God. Our faith can yield far more satisfying answers to these horrible dilemmas than can the non-answers of the Materialist.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-18016774156660241492010-08-02T21:46:48.605-07:002010-08-02T21:46:48.605-07:00Cliff- I loved your comment "Anyone with chil...Cliff- I loved your comment "Anyone with children understands that there are times when a parent is both able and willing to shield his children from risk of harm, and chooses to self-limit his intervention"<br /><br />You might guess that I concur with the title of my own blog. The problem of evil has become even less of a problem as I watch my daughter claim she thinks I don't love her when I put her in time-out!<br /><br />My husband, who doesn't really doubt much at all, does have a bit of an issue with evil, particularly as a physician. I wonder if it is because I'm so shielded from the world in my "bubble" of being a stay at home mom, that I just haven't seen enough evil to doubt. I hope not though...I really dont need another thing to doubt about!!!Like a Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15991265512226039592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-81421371711716105202010-08-02T21:43:12.069-07:002010-08-02T21:43:12.069-07:00I read a couple of your posts on the problem of Ev...I read a couple of your posts on the problem of Evil - Interesting insights. I find it strange that the problem of Evil is one that I least struggle with. Maybe I have "unconventional" views on evil. I view most evil as just being part of the natural process of life and remnants of evolution - particularly with some of the moral behaviors. I've been watching the BBC Earth series, and watching the animals in action, all I see is evil at its greatest. The fact that God gave us a soul, a higher consciousness, a moral compass, points me towards the fact that God in fact is good and is at work against the evil, even through our own sense of right at wrong. Atheistic evolution, on the other hand, gives a horribly poor answer to the problem of evil. <br /><br />Yet, I struggle with the concept of evil as it pertains to faith, doubt and Calvinism. Why is it so hard for some to believe, including myself. Did he predestine them to Hell. That just seems cruel. The suffering and evil on Earth is not on my mind -- rather, it is eternal suffering that bothers me. What about the Jews that were killed in the Holocost. My list could go on. Finally, and this links up to what I posted previously on your blog, when Christians fail to show love, that is basically akin to evil...and there is so little love nowadays...Look at Anne Rice. Okay...Off to bed!Like a Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15991265512226039592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-25077909600390488072008-12-01T12:11:00.000-08:002008-12-01T12:11:00.000-08:00cliff > The free exercise of one's omnipote...cliff <EM>> The free exercise of one's omnipotence can quite obviously be conditional...</EM><BR/><BR/>One is actually willing to freely exercise one's power <B>or</B> one is actually not willing to freely exercise one's power - depending on conditions which one is free to disregard but actually not willing to disregard - so actually <EM>not willing</EM>.<BR/><BR/>Which is enough to describe Epicurus's gods as indifferent - neither benevolent nor malevolent.<BR/><BR/>Saying <EM>self-limited</EM> is simply to say <EM>not willing</EM> with different words - it doesn't make it into <EM>willing</EM>.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> The answer should have read, "God".</EM><BR/><BR/>If the answer had been "someone like us but a lot older, cleverer and more skilful" the relevance of what "we all experience in the choices of our lives" would have been obvious - but not obvious for an unlimited God.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-34851621532201626472008-11-30T16:18:00.000-08:002008-11-30T16:18:00.000-08:00Isaac,• The free exercise of one's omnipotence can...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>• The free exercise of one's omnipotence can quite obviously be conditional without the omnipotence being conditional.<BR/><BR/>• I'm sorry, I did misread the final of your three questions. The answer should have read, "God".Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-88265375080088793242008-11-30T13:49:00.000-08:002008-11-30T13:49:00.000-08:00isaac > >Is God's omnipotence conditiona...isaac <EM>> >Is God's omnipotence conditional?</EM><BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> No.</EM><BR/><BR/>How are we supposed to square that with <EM>"... the exercise of his power is self-limited in this cosmos and in this age"?</EM><BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> and No.</EM><BR/><BR/>It wasn't a yes/no question.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-70458129743726008952008-11-26T20:00:00.000-08:002008-11-26T20:00:00.000-08:00Isaac,No.No. and No.Isaac,<BR/><BR/>No.<BR/>No. <BR/>and No.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-20923954584170137112008-11-26T09:12:00.000-08:002008-11-26T09:12:00.000-08:00cliff > ... no room for conditions in willingne...cliff <EM>> ... no room for conditions in willingness, something which we all experience in the choices of our lives.</EM><BR/><BR/>Is God's omnipotence conditional?<BR/><BR/>Is God's benevolence conditional?<BR/><BR/>Are you speaking of God or of "someone like us but a lot older, cleverer and more skilful"?Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-27221145839469975372008-11-25T15:27:00.000-08:002008-11-25T15:27:00.000-08:00Is there something in Epicurus to indicate that wi...<I>Is there something in Epicurus to indicate that willingness should be read as conditional?</I><BR/><BR/>Not as far as I can tell. And, of course, this is the Achilles' heel of Epicurus. He leaves no room for conditions in willingness, something which we all experience in the choices of our lives.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-67742652319477118612008-11-25T13:50:00.000-08:002008-11-25T13:50:00.000-08:00cliff > We are often willing and able, but for ...cliff <EM>> We are often willing and able, but for reasons other than ability and desire, we withhold our hand.</EM><BR/><BR/>Which is simply to say once again that I should interpret your <EM>I am willing</EM> as having unspoken restrictions.<BR/><BR/>Is there something in Epicurus to indicate that willingness should be read as conditional?Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-57597898477680732112008-11-25T13:04:00.000-08:002008-11-25T13:04:00.000-08:00Isaac,Please note that I specifically said that th...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>Please note that I specifically said that the "offered parenting scenario" was not analogous to my views about God and evil. So it was clearly a mistake to apply that scenario to God.<BR/><BR/>As for willingness, again, you do not know my views. Suffice it to say that none of us always does what we want to do. We are often willing and able, but for reasons other than ability and desire, we withhold our hand. If you think long enough, you can do doubt see this principle at work in your own life.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-88931532076613039692008-11-25T12:22:00.000-08:002008-11-25T12:22:00.000-08:00I was just following your "offered scenario from p...I was just following your "offered scenario from parenting".<BR/><BR/>Assumptions about what drives His will might have something to say about <EM>why</EM> He is or is not willing - but what do they have to say about <EM>whether</EM> He is or is not willing?<BR/><BR/><EM>I am willing if I can be bothered</EM> <BR/>- isn't - <BR/><EM>I am willing</EM>.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-5758197231020061262008-11-25T11:29:00.000-08:002008-11-25T11:29:00.000-08:00Or maybe you are incorrectly assuming that we (and...Or maybe you are incorrectly assuming that <I>we</I> (and what is good for us) are what drives his will.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-79892033869399677332008-11-25T11:23:00.000-08:002008-11-25T11:23:00.000-08:00At least I've learned that I should interpret your...At least I've learned that I should interpret your <EM>"I will!"</EM> as having unspoken restrictions - I will if I think it's good for you...Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-43806391884302347572008-11-24T21:50:00.000-08:002008-11-24T21:50:00.000-08:00No. Sorry, you don't get it.No. Sorry, you don't get it.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-18145824993308894972008-11-24T16:51:00.000-08:002008-11-24T16:51:00.000-08:00cliff > ... both able and willing to shield his...cliff <EM>> ... both able and willing to shield his children from risk of harm, and chooses to self-limit his intervention.</EM><BR/><BR/>Which is to say willing in some cases and not-willing in other cases!Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-28118630386277068922008-11-24T09:38:00.000-08:002008-11-24T09:38:00.000-08:00Okay Isaac, I'll be more specific ...cliff > th...Okay Isaac, I'll be more specific ...<BR/><BR/><I>cliff > the exercise of his power is self-limited in this cosmos and in this age.<BR/><BR/>isaac> Which is to say - able but not willing.</I><BR/><BR/>Anyone with children understands that there are times when a parent is both able and willing to shield his children from risk of harm, and chooses to self-limit his intervention. So your inference is unwarranted. <BR/><BR/>In the case of God and evil in the cosmos, your inference is also quite mistaken. You'll see why after I have laid out my view. <BR/><BR/>(btw, my offered scenario from parenting is not analogous to my view of what is happening in the God and evil arena. I offer it to demonstrate that willingness + ability does not always result in action.)Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-87818357276567806002008-11-23T08:52:00.000-08:002008-11-23T08:52:00.000-08:00cliff > I don't think you yet understand my...cliff <EM>> I don't think you yet understand my views about evil.</EM><BR/><BR/>My reference was to what you have already stated: <EM>the exercise of his power is self-limited in this cosmos and in this age.</EM>Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-9814223960155514362008-11-22T21:14:00.000-08:002008-11-22T21:14:00.000-08:00Isaac,I don't think you yet understand my views ab...Isaac,<BR/><BR/>I don't think you yet understand my views about evil. I will soon post how I solve the riddle of evil in the cosmos. I'd prefer to hold any defense of my views until after I have offered them.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-60799756141571075802008-11-21T10:13:00.000-08:002008-11-21T10:13:00.000-08:00mea culpaYour view doesn't provide ad hoc defense ...<EM>mea culpa</EM><BR/>Your view doesn't provide ad hoc defense against questions about our suffering world.<BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> the exercise of his power is self-limited in this cosmos and in this age.</EM><BR/><BR/>Which is to say - able but not willing.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> He is waging the battle through his created cosmos...</EM><BR/><BR/>Whither the first commandment?Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-77849391042969315312008-11-20T13:58:00.000-08:002008-11-20T13:58:00.000-08:00cliff > On the other hand, and in a totally dif...cliff <EM>> On the other hand, and in a totally different way, the existence of a transcendent, supernatural force of evil powerfully suggests a power of goodness which has held it in check. That is my view.</EM><BR/><BR/>Based on assumption that a supernatural force of evil would need to be held in check - when you're willing to argue for the self-limited power of God it is no more than arbitrary convenience to disallow a self-limited power of evil.<BR/><BR/>I can see that your view allows ad hoc defense against questions about our suffering world - as long as you don't examine it too closely.<BR/><BR/><BR/>cliff <EM>> It seems self-evident to me.</EM><BR/><BR/>It seems completely arbitrary to me.Isaac Gouyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02902123247585964087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-60851510657263523562008-11-20T05:38:00.000-08:002008-11-20T05:38:00.000-08:00Psi,It is a bit more complex than that, but yes, e...Psi,<BR/><BR/>It is a bit more complex than that, but yes, essentially my belief is what you have said.<BR/><BR/>Many things about the human experience suggest to me that there is larger, unseen battle raging about us, one in which our lives and our choices play a significant role. The "good fight" is not merely God's. He is waging the battle through his created cosmos, including mankind. That is why, in my view, our actions, our choices, our prayers (etc.) matter profoundly.Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1276137109108719911.post-85925130638843776092008-11-19T23:51:00.000-08:002008-11-19T23:51:00.000-08:00Hi Cliff,Sorry mate. I might have got it now. . ....Hi Cliff,<BR/><BR/>Sorry mate. <BR/><BR/>I might have got it now. . .<BR/><BR/>Evil is not necessary for god to exist . . . but the fact it does suggests that he does.<BR/><BR/>Evil is not a necessary or sufficient condition for god. But the fact it exists at all suggests god is there fighting the good fight.<BR/><BR/>Is that right?<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>PsiPsiloiordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235629211359287564noreply@blogger.com