Sunday, March 29, 2009

The Problem of Evil V. God: Perpetrator or Responder?

Today's post, a slight digression from the God and Evil series, is inspired by a discussion with a reader (whose comments have been insightful and helpful!) in the comment thread of the previous post. I offer the reasons why I find the standard Calvinistic Theodicy a nonstarter. Please comment! 

Fire! Fire!

My father was a fireman. Because he was an officer, the fire alarms came directly to our home. And since we lived near downtown Albany, I would often ride my bike to watch live fire fights. One summer morning, when I was about 12 years old, I rode down to an older part of town to watch the fire department put out an apartment fire above the Linger Longer Tavern. Also watching, on the sidewalk beside me, was a friend I knew from my school. We’ll call him Ronnie. Ronnie (who was slightly retarded) was excited! He had turned in the alarm, he told me. In those days, Albany had Gamewell sidewalk boxes scattered around town, and indeed Ronnie had used one to call out the fire trucks. What a hero, I thought. I wish I had been on the scene to discover such a fire, and that I could pull the Gamewell lever! That fire was to be the first of five major fires that day, all in the downtown area, one right after another! The department's resources were so taxed they even rolled out the 1925 American LaFrance, the only time I ever saw it used on a real fire.

After all the dust and smoke settled, we learned what was by then obvious: the fires were the work of an over-active arsonist. We also learned that the officials had identified the perpetrator. Imagine my astonishment when I learned that the arsonist was my friend, Ronnie. In an instant, he was de-elevated from “hero of the day” to “heel of the day”. I recalled watching my own father crawl out of a basement window of a smoke filled apartment house on Lyon Street, one of Ronnie's fires. Dad was coughing and sputtering; I watched, filled with apprehension, as he lay motionless in the grass for several minutes recovering his breath (those were the days before SCBA breathing cylinders and the mandatory buddy systems all departments use today). I thought about how I could have lost my father that day. My earlier admiration of Ronnie turned to anger. How could he! I never saw Ronnie again.

Many Christians today find comfort in the thought that God is in control of all things. Carried to its extreme, this doctrine is known as Calvinism, or Reformed Theology. When Calvinists look at the Problem of Evil, they typically see no problem at all. If God is in control of all things, then it follows that he is in control of evil. In fact, he created evil itself. Calvinists will take you to Isaiah 45, and point to verse 7 which proves it! (Of course, the verse is taken out of its context, and other more likely interpretations are ignored.) This view goes on to say that evil is part of God’s plan for the cosmos, because by defeating it, God will get glory.

So, let’s see if we understand this. When Ronnie sets a fire so he can get some glory, he is institutionalized as a dangerous, mentally deranged perpetrator. When God sets loose a billions-of-years run of horrendous evil so he can get glory ....

Can there truly be glory for the charter boat operator who capsizes his vessel, but manages to save a few of his passengers? Is there glory for the zookeeper who tranquilizes the rampaging lion, saving a threatened child, if we learn that he was the very zookeeper who left the lion’s cage open? intentionally? Is there glory for the scientist who unleashes some new disease upon the population so that he can bring out the cure he has already devised? Is there glory for a God who inflicts his child with sickness, and then miraculously heals?

I am reminded of the scene from
The Count of Monte Cristo in which Edmond heroically rescues young Albert Mondego from his would-be kidnappers. But, as we later discover, Edmond had set up the whole affair, and paid the kidnappers who were his own friends. Glorious?

I fail to see how a God can create a universe in which he positions evil—limiting its power somewhat below his own, of course—so that he can defeat it and leverage up his own glory. It has simply never made sense to me. My Calvinist friends point out the presumptuous audacity of my sitting in judgment of God, and remind me that this stuff doesn’t have to make sense ... we just humbly accept it as the way things are. But in the end, the honest ones often agree:
we can't possibly understand this scenario. 

Is God a perpetrator? or is he a redeemer? Does he prescribe evil, and plan evil events? or does he respond to evil, showing the greater power of his inherent inalterable goodness? Does he design the disaster so he can step in to rescue his beloved ones? Or does he react to disaster, counter its effects, and demonstrate the brilliance of his redemptive genius?

Is God like Ronnie? Is he a clever Edmond Dantes? Or is he locked in an age-old battle with a tenacious and intractable foe, responding to his moves, slowly but surely wearing him down, and destined to ultimately dislodge and overthrow him?

You cannot have it both ways.

182 comments:

Rich G. said...

Hi! It's me again.

Can we have a commonly agreed-upon definition of the term "Evil"? As I remember it, this was our main difference, as you see natural events in a 'good' or 'evil' context, where I see them as neither- they just events with no moral content at all.

I also had a thought about the "chief end of man" declaration - that this is *man's* chief end as a specially-assigned role as a selected and appointed member of God's overall creation.

Cliff Martin said...

Hi Rich, good to hear from you!

Can we have a commonly agreed-upon definition of the term "Evil"? As I remember it, this was our main difference, as you see natural events in a 'good' or 'evil' context, where I see them as neither- they just events with no moral content at all.

Actually, I did not set the definitions for the Problem of Evil debates. They are set by the all the skeptics who challenge theism on the basis of evil, dating back to Epicurus. They make no distinction between natural evil and moral evil. I'm not sure why this matters for you. Call it something different if you'd like; the problem remains the same.

That which differentiates between our understandings of moral versus natural evil is the agency (or lack of agency) of man. In the theistic debates, the Problem of Evil is addressing God's culpability for either implementing or allowing
• earthquakes that kill people,
• meteorites that render entire species extinct,
• people who torture and kill each other,
• a myriad of examples of gratuitous animal pain,
• droughts that bring slow painful deaths to entire villages,
• etc., etc.
To the skeptic who is challenging God's supposed superintendence of his Creation, it matters little if there is an intermediate agent such as man. The charge is laid at the feet of God.

When we seek to provide a meaningful answer to their objections, I do not see how it helps to parse out the word evil, and draw distinctions which will make no difference in their argument.

Or do you feel it does make a difference?

I agree that if we are talking to each other as fellow believers trying to sort out own doubts and faith issues, it might help to distinguish between natural harms, and moral evil. But the terms in the theistic debates have already been defined for us.

Rich G. said...

Then why accept the skeptic's premise? They are not really interested in solving thr POE, all they want to do is put us on the defensive and dance to their tune. Just because some 'smart guy' presented a definition over 2000 years ago does not mean we have to bow down to his formulation. We can still use the scriptures- especially the OT where there are plenty of statements attributed to God taking credit for causing storms, earthquakes, plagues and famines, or even raising up despotic foreign tyrants and invaders. I would say we need to accept that these things are somehow consistant with God's character, in ways we do not understand (and wish we could). We do not need to 'defend' God, even as we ourselves are seeking to understand his ways.

I was just reading in Wilburforce's "A PRACTICAL VIEW OF THE PREVAILING RELIGIOUS SYSTEM OF PROFESSED CHRISTIANS...", and found this:
"Let not my readers be alarmed! The writer is not going to enter into the discussion of the grand question concerning the origin of moral evil, or to attempt at large to reconcile its existence and consequent punishment with the acknowledged attributes and perfections of God. These are questions, of which, if one may judge from the little success with which the acutest and profoundest reasoners have been ever labouring to solve the difficulties they contain, the full and clear comprehension is above the intellect of man. Yet, as such an objection as that which has been stated is sometimes heard from the mouths of professed Christians, it must not be passed by without a few short observations.

Were the language in question to be addressed to us by an avowed sceptic, though it might not be very difficult to expose to him the futility of his reasonings, we should almost despair of satisfying him of the soundness of our own. We should perhaps suggest impossibilities, which might stand in the way of such a system as he would establish: we might indeed point out wherein (arguing from concessions which he would freely make) his pre-conceptions concerning the conduct of the Supreme Being, had been in fact already contradicted, particularly by the existence at all of natural or moral evil: and if thus proved erroneous in one instance, why might they not be so likewise in another? But though by these and similar arguments we might at length silence our objector, we could not much expect to bring him over to our opinions. We should probably do better, if we were to endeavour rather to draw him off from these dark and slippery regions, (slippery in truth they are to every human foot) and to contend with him, where we might tread with firmness and freedom, on sure ground, and in the light of day. Then we might fairly lay before him all the various arguments for the truth of our holy religion; arguments which have been sufficient to satisfy the wisest, and the best, and the ablest of men. We should afterwards perhaps insist on the abundant confirmation Christianity receives from its being exactly suited to the nature and wants of man; and we might conclude, with fairly putting it to him, whether all this weight of evidence were to be overbalanced by this one difficulty, on a subject so confessedly high and mysterious, considering too that he must allow, we see but a part (O how small a part!) of the universal creation of God, and that our faculties are wholly incompetent to judge of the schemes of his infinite wisdom. This, if the writer may be permitted to offer his own judgment, is (at least in general) the best mode, in the case of the objection now in question, of dealing with unbelievers; and to adopt the contrary plan, seems somewhat like that of any one, who having to convince some untutored Indian of the truth of the Copernican system, instead of beginning with plain and simple propositions, and leading him on to what is more abstruse and remote, should state to him at the outset some astonishing problems, to which the understanding can only yield its slow assent, when constrained by the decisive force of demonstration. The novice, instead of lending himself to such a mistaken method of instruction, would turn away in disgust, and be only hardened against his preceptor..."

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

Wow! You've given us a lot to think about ... and from Wilberforce, no less.

I will not argue his point that there are better ways to bring the truths of Christianity to bear upon a skeptic. And it is likely true that, were we to actually solve the P of E, many skeptics would turn to another peg upon which to hang their hat.

But may I suggest that for every person of faith willing to engage the skeptic at the level of their rational objections, there are hundreds of evangelists doing exactly what Wilberforce prescribes. I do not find their message to be overwhelming our culture. Do you?

I want to respond to just one of Wilberforce's statements:
These are questions, of which, if one may judge from the little success with which the acutest and profoundest reasoners have been ever labouring to solve the difficulties they contain, the full and clear comprehension is above the intellect of man.

On what premise do we know which of the understandings of the workings of God are "above the intellect of man"? Some may indeed be "past finding out." But others are not. Do we throw up our hands and stop trying to understand this inscrutable God because, so far, no one has solved the P of E, for example?

I agree that apologists have had "little success" in this area. I have written before about my lack of satisfaction with the various theodicies I have read. On the other hand, some (Hart and Boyd come to mind) have made some well reasoned and reasonable cases.

But the approach I am suggesting on this blog is a new one (as far as I know). Earlier apologists worked without the benefit of recent revelation regarding Creation. We now have some understandings about the history of the universe (with entropy dating back to the very beginning) and of life on the earth (the slow rise of life) which make a significant difference in how we approach the P of E if we are willing to take them into account.

I can say that, for the skeptic that lives in me, these understandings about cosmic and life history have completely altered the playing field of this debate. And they have suggested some answers to the P of E which, for the first time in my life, I find satisfying.

So I ask you: rather than simply contending that taking on the challenge of Epicurus is a waste of time, help me to see where this approach to the problem fails?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > ... God taking credit for causing storms, earthquakes, plagues and famines, or even raising up despotic foreign tyrants and invaders. I would say we need to accept that these things are somehow consistent with God's character, in ways we do not understand (and wish we could).

Nothing could be more straightforward - rather than believe in a providential God, rather than believe in a perfectly good God follow Epicurus and believe that God is indifferent, that God has no concern for human beings.

Then again, that does seem to strike at the heart of Christianity.

Rich G. said...

Hi Isaac:

You wrote: Nothing could be more straightforward - rather than believe in a providential God, rather than believe in a perfectly good God follow Epicurus and believe that God is indifferent, that God has no concern for human beings.

Why should I? There is too much evidence to conclude that God is indifferent to mankind's state, or even existence. But it is evidence that does not lend itself to scientific verification, just as you cannot scientifically prove to me that you are a self-aware being instead of an artifact of my own imagination. Any evidence you could present could be explained away, just as you could with my evidence. God has not left himself without testimony but it does take "eyes to see and ears to hear".

Rich G. said...

Should be:

Why should I? There is too much contrary evidence to...

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

I do not believe we should simply throw up our hands with an "It's too complicated, I give up" - The issue is an important one and is to be exercised. But I believe it is ultimately futile to try to convince a diehard skeptic using their 'ultimate' problem. For most, it is simply an excuse they use to trip up believers who are unprepared and uncertain in what and why they believe.

I think there is value in thinking believers grappling with th e tough questions - as an antidote to the 'easy believeism' so common in the church at large. I am all for a robust faith that is not gullible or easily swayed, but still knows there are problems that may never be satisfactorily answered.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

You write about "the OT where there are plenty of statements attributed to God taking credit for causing storms, earthquakes, plagues and famines, or even raising up despotic foreign tyrants and invaders."

Early on, people typically thought that storms and earthquakes and famines were the work of "the gods". The people of Judah and Israel were no exception. I do not understand these verses to be completely accurate. It is true that God often used calamities and foreign invaders to accomplish some purpose with his people. It would not surprise me that, upon considering how God used the circumstance, the Israelites would attribute the calamity itself to the direct work of God.

God redeems bad circumstances. There are plenty of them to go around! He does not need to create them. When Joseph said "God meant it for good", I believe that the more accurate understanding would be that God caused it to turn out for good. It was not God who put it into the heart of the brothers to abandon Joseph. He merely took the evil they did, and turned it into something very good indeed. So, from Joseph's viewpoint, it is all the same as if he had planned it all along! I believe the other passage where God is said to bring calamity or foreign despots ought to be understood in the same way.

For me, this is an example of the character and workings of God coming into clearer focus as written revelation progressed (see my earlier post on Progressive Revelation). I believe that Jesus gave his answer to this kind of thinking in Luke 13:1-5, and John 9:2-3.

Do you believe that God still directly causes storms, earthquakes, plagues and famines to accomplish his purposes, or raises up invading terrorists to do his bidding?

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

Do you believe that God still directly causes storms, earthquakes, plagues and famines to accomplish his purposes, or raises up invading terrorists to do his bidding?

Not by divine fiat. At least not normally. But if you take the Psalms, Job and Ecclesiastes as bearing at least a partial imprint of God's revealed character, the answer is not so simple.

The scriptures state both that "his ways are past finding out" and "that which may be known of him has been revealed". This is an apparent contradiction that offends the western, evangelical mind, which wants everything to be solvable. But this is not a problem for Orthodox, Catholic or Lutheran understanding. I think we evangelicals could use a healthy dose of mystery and awe.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

Mystery is good, yes. But ...

"that which may be known of him has been revealed."

... I do not know the verse you are quoting here. If the Bible says this, then my entire premise re: revelation on-going to the present day is false, isn't it. Chapter and verse, please. Because if you are quoting Romans 1, you have lifted it out of its context, and left out the end of the sentence which changes the meaning completely.

Rich G. said...

I'm not that far out of context. Sure I'm not quoting word-for-word, from Romans 1:17ff, but I still think my core argument stands.

And I think I am in good company, if you compare the OT quotations used in the NT. Those guys REALLY took things out of context.

Tom said...

Hi Cliff.

Nice to see you blogging again. I'll start up again one of these days...

One spin on the Bible attributing natural disasters to God is that it could have been more relative. The ancient Hebrews were surrounded by cultures with other gods that did manipulate the elements. If their God was The God, and couldn't bring about natural disasters, then he wouldn't really measure up, would he? Chalk it up as another example of progressive revelation, but, like the evidence in evolution and geology, it seems you cannot help but start painting an impersonal, remote God if you go down that path....

While you do not want to worship or accept a God that operates as firestarter Ronnie did, if God used evolution, which I admit gets about as close to free will as I think you could imagine, then there was still this created universe made to grow pain and pleasure, God and Satan even using both as they evolved, and a lot of waste in terms of species developing what we might call boring lives (think jellyfish), and a lot of species starving and being devoured by others. (Seems like lots of empty planets, and galaxies, too). You also want to say that we humans arrived at some pinnacle of evolution and acquired God's image, then once that image was obtained, sin entered the picture and required supernatural-becomes-natural interaction to assist in this free-will process that God ordained. In the end, theodicy is intimately tied to theology.

As Rich points out, there is scriptural support for God telling everyone to chill out and let things be a mystery. Job never got what I would call a satisfactory answer. As Epicurus proved, the PoE is unanswerable unless you concede some mystery. Is that not faith?

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

I may have misread your point in the Romans quote. I thought you were saying that all that can be known about God had, by Paul's time, been revealed. There is nothing new to learn. But now I see that you were contrasting the verses, and you were inferring from Romans that everything about God can be known, a mysterious contradiction to "his ways are past finding out." Sorry about my reaction.

Tom,

Welcome back! I do hope you start posting more regularly again!

You raise objections to what you think I believe. You are correct that my view of God is mainly "hands-off" his creation ... that he allows things to take their natural course. In fact I do believe that the "natural course" is the very thing he is interested in. I do not understand how you and others make the leap to a "remote" and "impersonal" God. In this entire blog, I am positing a God who, while intentionally hands-off, is vitally interested in, and heavily invested in the process as it develops. How does this make him impersonal or remote? For me, this understanding takes what is best from deism (which is, historically, the most rational form of theism) and Biblical Christianity, and combines them into a reasonable and dramatic unfolding of the very teachings of Jesus.

You must also know that there are many ways to view the significance of the suffering and death of Jesus. You presume the rather simplistic, typical evangelical story (Fall of man, personal salvation through the sacrifice of Christ). While this is part of the story, it is not, in my view, the main thing happening in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus.

And those points you raise about the cosmic proportions of extravagant waste were the very beginnings of this whole thought process for me. I saw those same things, asked "what is that about?" and OutsideTheBox came out of my questions. I am attempting to answer those questions here.

Rich and Tom,

the PoE is unanswerable unless you concede some mystery. Is that not faith?

Yes! I am far from settling all mysteries that bounce around in my head. But I am offering some possible solutions to some of them.

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

I may have misread your point in the Romans quote. I thought you were saying that all that can be known about God had, by Paul's time, been revealed. There is nothing new to learn. But now I see that you were contrasting the verses, and you were inferring from Romans that everything about God can be known, a mysterious contradiction to "his ways are past finding out." Sorry about my reaction.

No problem, it is good to press a point to make sure we are understanding each other.

I would say you are closer to my meaning, but not quite there. It is clear that God has not revealed everything, and there are still more areas (of His ways and means) to be explored. But He has revealed enough to meet the needs of the age, and give an indication that there is so much more to learn.

I appreciate your comments about God being intimately interested in his creation. So interested that He personally visited it, only to be rejected by some of the beings inhabiting that creation.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

But He has revealed enough to meet the needs of the age ...

Exactly! Sometimes people ask me why, if my unconventional ideas are accurate, God let people believe otherwise for so long. My answer is always what you wrote: "He has revealed enough to meet the needs of each age." Here is the caveat. We have learned amazing things about the history of the cosmos from science over the last 100 years or so. Some of it impacts theology (if we will notice!). So, could it be that, in this age, God is expanding revelation and understanding because we can now benefit from a deeper understanding? In this sense, divine revelation follows the principle of intelligence gathering: information is disseminated on a "need to know" basis.

My thoughts on the on-going nature of progressive revelation are detailed in this post, which was a reaction to some things Richard Dawkins wrote about God.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > I did not set the definitions for the Problem of Evil debates. They are set by the all the skeptics who challenge theism on the basis of evil, dating back to Epicurus. They make no distinction between natural evil and moral evil.

Given how long the Problem of Evil has been examined in Philosophy, I would guess skeptical philosophers have sliced and diced it every which way.

Do you really mean to suggest that skeptical philosophers don't distinguish between natural evil and moral evil when they discuss the Problem of Evil?

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

Do you really mean to suggest that skeptical philosophers don't distinguish between natural evil and moral evil when they discuss the Problem of Evil?

No, the distinction between natural and moral evil is well understood on both sides. I was responding to Rich, who wished to define natural evil out of the equation as not, in one sense, evil. My point was that in the theism debates, the Problem of Evil takes into consideration both kinds of evil; Most skeptics would not consider his suggestion that we eliminate natural evil from the problem. Would you agree?

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > Most skeptics would not consider his suggestion that we eliminate natural evil from the problem. Would you agree?

I don't know whether most would or not.

Why single skeptics out, do you have a reason to think that most believers would consider that suggestion?

It seems to me that many believers find the magnitude of "natural evil" deeply troubling.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

It seems to me that many believers find the magnitude of "natural evil" deeply troubling.

Indeed. I do.

If you follow the train of discussion, I think you will see that I was not singling out skeptics. I was merely stating the obvious: skepticism, dating back to Epicurus, defines the terms of the P of E debate.

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

No, the distinction between natural and moral evil is well understood on both sides. I was responding to Rich, who wished to define natural evil out of the equation as not, in one sense, evil. My point was that in the theism debates, the Problem of Evil takes into consideration both kinds of evil; Most skeptics would not consider his suggestion that we eliminate natural evil from the problem. Would you agree?

I do this because I tend to agree with Charles Finney's working definition of evil: "That which as its chief end, does not seek the ultimate good of God and his creation" (paraphrased)

I find that most self-described skeptics are simply using the PoE as a way of dismissing any creator by presenting a logically insoluble problem based upon (what I believe to be) faulty assumptions about what actually constitutes "evil" - even though this has been sliced ad diced for thousands of years by Certified Smart® people.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

You may be correct ... and I do not disagree that, at least for some skeptics, the P of E is a ruse thrown up to disguise their fundamental rejection of authority. We are all, at our core, independent and rebellious, and we always seek to disguise our rebellion in some more socially acceptable argument. However,

Your argument (and Finney's) relies on the assumption that billions of years of animal predation, species extinction, earthquakes, floods, famines, etc., (the groaning of creation, Rom 8:22) is good.

Now I agree that it may all be good in terms of how God redeems it, or uses it to accomplish his lofty and good purposes. But to say it is good, or that God ordained it to be such so that he could bring about something good is a different argument.

All that looks bad to me. God may well turn it around to his purposes and his glory. But, as per the O.P., that is more an indication of his redemptive genius than his blueprint plans.

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

Your argument (and Finney's) relies on the assumption that billions of years of animal predation, species extinction, earthquakes, floods, famines, etc., (the groaning of creation, Rom 8:22) is good.

Actually neutral is closer to my meaning. Finney's Systematic Theology develops this better than my thumbnail.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > ... (what I believe to be) faulty assumptions about what actually constitutes "evil"

And of course you can have your own notion of "evil" - whether your notion jibes with the moral concerns of other people is a different matter, for example "All that looks bad to me".



cliff > ... a ruse thrown up to disguise their fundamental rejection of authority.

"...the nature of evil ... Nor - and this is crucial - does evil consist in being transient, made to decay. ... There is nothing wrong with the sunset fading away into darkness. ...
Evil then consists not in being created but in the rebellious idolatry by which humans worship and honor elements of the natural world rather than the God who made them."

p94-95 Surprised by Hope


iirc Biblical child sacrifice was carried out in deference to authority, in worship and to the honor of god.

wtanksley said...

Do you believe that God still directly causes storms, ... invading terrorists to do his bidding?

Yes, so long as you take out the word "directly". That's what the Bible says. Do you have a reason to believe something else?

I see some here are claiming that the ancient authors were simply wrong when they attributed those things to God; the problem with that claim is that it touches on the specific area where the Bible is supposed to be authoritative: the revelation of the purpose, person, and nature of God. I understand doubting where ancient people allow their cosmologies into their text; but if we can't trust their writings about the nature of God, especially when they're doing so in the name of God, we've got no revelation left at all.

-Wm

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

iirc Biblical child sacrifice was carried out in deference to authority, in worship and to the honor of god.

Huh? Where?

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

iirc, Child sacrifice is uniformly rejected in Biblical literature. However, your point may be legitimate anyway. And I grant your point. You are correct that blind allegiance to authority has resulted in many lamentable practices in religion, and various social movements. No one is exempt from the requirement to test authority, to yield up allegiance carefully.

Will you grant my point that there is an almost universal trait among human beings to reject authority, to rebel? And that this tendency to cast off restraint and assert independence could be what drives atheism for some?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > Huh? Where?

Abraham & Isaac.


cliff > You are correct that blind allegiance to authority...

Not just that, the good bishop's statement on the nature of evil takes hold of the definition in such a way that we'd need to come up with another word to carry the modern everyday meaning.


cliff > ... almost universal trait among human beings to reject authority, to rebel?

Saying almost universal is to admit not universal, and the statement seems like a sweeping generalization.


cliff > ... this tendency to cast off restraint and assert independence could be what drives atheism for some?

I think you have as little or as much basis to claim that could be what drives theism for some - cast off restraint and assert independence, splintering into a multitude of different churches.


Perhaps what you are saying is better understood as the tension between liberty and licence -

"... freedom was the prized status of individuals, marking them off from slaves who were to be bought and sold. But, outside slavery, in what did an individual's freedom consist? Did it require freedom of speech or freedom to worship whatever gods one chose? ... When did 'liberty' become wicked 'license'?"

p8 The Classical World

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

And of course you can have your own notion of "evil" - whether your notion jibes with the moral concerns of other people is a different matter, for example "All that looks bad to me".

Popular opinion, even of the knowledgeable, Does not make a thing true, any more than the opinion of one.

"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
Anatole France
French novelist (1844 - 1924)

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > Popular opinion...

Where exactly in the words of mine you quoted do you think I suggested that popular opinion makes something true?

Isaac Gouy said...

Cliff, incidentally, if you haven't read N.T.Wright I think you would this interesting:

Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church

Cliff Martin said...

Thank you, Isaac. Actually, N.T. Wright's Surprised by Hope is one of two books I am reading at this time. I found it interesting that you quoted him the other day, and I went immediately to the page. I will need to read more of the book (I'm only in chapter 2) before I can comment of Wright's thoughts re. evil.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > Wright's thoughts re. evil

How some of your ideas might or might not change in response to Wright's thoughts would be a story in itself.

wtanksley said...

I believe that Jesus gave his answer to this kind of thinking in Luke 13:1-5, and John 9:2-3.

The passage in Luke offers little clarity on this topic (but should, I think, silence those who attribute every disaster to the judgment of God against X). The problem is that the passage doesn't say that God didn't cause that disaster -- it merely says that God isn't using that disaster to judge those people. Furthermore, the "unless you repent, you too shall all perish" hints that God may cause a disaster -- but I'll stop without claiming that it proves that, because that's saying far too much.

The passage in John is an absolute disaster to your claims, though. Why was that man born blind? "So that the work of God might be displayed in his life." In other words, the disaster of his being born blind had a purpose, and the purpose was to manifest the works of God. Whose purpose was it? Purposes have people behind them... It seems to me that the purpose was God's.

No, God did not reach down with His metaphorical hand to cause the man's blindness; nor did God do that to cause the Babylonians to invade. But those things happened because God purposed that they happen.

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

Yes, the Luke passage is inconclusive on the question at hand. But I do read it as something of a rebuff against those who were quick to read judgment into any and every natural calamity. So I think we read it the same way. My point is that as written revelation progresses, we see less and less of God bringing calamity in judgment or raising up foreign powers against his people. I tend to evaluate earlier revelation in light of later.

No, I do not read John to confirm a blueprint worldview (that God purposes and plans all things for his glory). I see it more as Jesus teaching us that every disaster, every unfortunate event, every disability, etc., is an opportunity for God's redemptive response. To suggest that God made this young man blind at birth just so that, many years later, Jesus could heal him is, to my mind, preposterous. Not only does it seem cruel, but it goes back to my original post. What kind of glory follows the restoring of sight to one made blind by the healer himself?

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Where exactly in the words of mine you quoted do you think I suggested that popular opinion makes something true?

It was just a quick gut reaction to this phrase: whether your notion jibes with the moral concerns of other people...

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

I've been pondering whether progressive revelation "fleshes out" incomplete understanding, or supersedes previous notions. That is: Are we getting a more complete picture that includes the previously revealed ideas, or are the old ones being replaced (discarded) as we progress?

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

... progressive revelation ... Are we getting a more complete picture that includes the previously revealed ideas, or are the old ones being replaced (discarded) as we progress?

I think of it more like tuning in the focus dial on a telescope, or binoculars, etc. Moses got a lot of revelation, and brought the people of faith a clearer view of God than mankind ever had before. But it was imperfect. David sharpens the focus some, but still the image is a bit fuzzy in places. Isaiah has an amazing revelation of God, and the clarity upon God's character is getting sharper. Jesus, of course, gives us the "exact representation" of the Father. And by the time John reflects back upon his Master, we have the fully informed quintessential revelation of the character of God: "God is love!"

If you wish I could be more specific about Moses and David. They say some things about God that are completely incongruent with N.T. revelation. But I think you already know about that.

I realize that my take on revelation strikes at the heart of the cherished doctrine of inerrancy. It is much tidier (simpler?) to maintain confessions about a magic book that contains no errors, no fuzziness, no contradictions. The problem is that we have no such book, and all serious Bible readers already know this. Though I read and love the Bible as much as ever, I find that I now must think much more when I read. That is more taxing! I have to depend upon the Holy Spirit more than ever. That requires more faith. But I cannot read it as I once did, accepting every word as "God's" word. Inspired? yes! Word perfect? no.

I may have already given you this link, but my views on infallibility, inerrancy, inspiration, and progressive revelation are best expressed here.

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

I know any analogy falls apart if pressed too far, but I don't think this statement is in accord with your "coming into better focus" view:
They say some things about God that are completely incongruent with N.T. revelation.

An image that lacks focus has all the information of the sharp one, but it's all blurred, disorganized and without distinction. As the image is sharpened, more details are visible, but the overall shapes remain. Nothing is lost by the sharpening, but everything that was there initially becomes more well-defined.

I would expect that a similar process has been followed in God's revelation of his character. What was initially 'known' was more general, and further revelation brings clarity and texture as the details become known. Nothing about God's character is discarded, only better-understood. The OT God may seem vengeful and capricious, I think those characteristics have not gone away - we now have a better understanding that there more aspects of his ways, as demonstrated by Christ.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

You’re right — analogies can be pressed too far. But let me try to clarify.

If we look at a blurry, incomplete image, we might draw a conclusion that is partly correct, and partly mistaken. Moses might have thought that, through his intercession, he actually calmed down an out-of-control angry and spiteful Deity, and talked him out of his plan to destroy the Israelites (Exodus 32). We know that God is not spiteful, rash, and in need of an occasional calming down from human beings! Still, Moses did learn that the intercessory prayers of faith-filled people do matter in terms of outcomes. There are numerous examples of things God said (supposedly) which I do not think possible that he would ever say ... but which might have made sense to the early believers. Some of them seriously malign the character of God! These early believers, these early inspired authors, had very incomplete ideas about God. Nevertheless, because they were in relationship with God, and because they were getting some of the picture right, God inspired them to record their impressions, truth with error, knowing that as this relationship progressed, future recorders of truth would produce a more accurate rendering of his character.

Dispensationalists suggest that these odd patterns are to be explained by the distinct and various ways that God has related to man in the economic epochs of human history. Isn’t it more sensible to recognize that the Scriptures are imperfect in their representation of the person, words, and nature of God. But perfect in their record of a people seeking God; a nation that turned (in stumbling fashion at times) to seek the one true and living God. A nation to whom God began, in steps as he could do so, to reveal himself and his ways, his purposes. The people then made a faithful and true record, a journal of their growing understandings of God.

Isaiah, late in the history of Israel, perhaps had the clearest vision of God of all the major O.T. writers. David saw better than Moses. Was God slowly changing? Or was progressive revelation at work?

I have written a fuller exposition of my views on Inspiration, and I would be happy to email you a pdf of that document. Or, perhaps I will post it here.

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

These early believers, these early inspired authors, had very incomplete ideas about God.
And He wasn't all that bothered by it.

My main point in this thread recently is that I do not think that the things that inspired their [incomplete] understandings have gone away. The God who gave the impression of feeling insecure about the devotion from his people, or being offended by their disregard of him, has not changed. He is not immobile, impassive, inert. Nor is he to be trifled with. In Christ we know so much more about his character. But to rip off a phrase from an atheist blog where I lurk:

At the end of the day, though, this is still Old Testament God. You don't f*** with that guy. Huggy-lovey kissy-wissy turn the other cheek God doesn't come until the sequel.

And I think too many modern Christians look at Christ not so much as fulfilling the image of God, but replacing it.

Cliff Martin said...

Rich,

I agree.

But don't you agree that Jesus gives us plenty of data to confirm that O.T. God you and you atheist friend describe?

Rich G. said...

Cliff:

I agree.
But don't you agree that Jesus gives us plenty of data to confirm that O.T. God you and you atheist friend describe?


Well, yeah. But many of my evangelical friends steer clear of the more hard and messy bits, and only want to hear about the softer, cleaner ones.

wtanksley said...

Let me back out to the main premise:

Talking about Calvinism: This view goes on to say that evil is part of God’s plan for the cosmos, because by defeating it, God will get glory.

Well... Not totally. Calvinism does not propose a single specific theodicy; rather, it says that a good theodicy must exist.

You're right in one major way: what you're describing is not a good theodicy. In fact, it's not a theodicy at all; it's purely missing the point.

A theodicy says that God had some good reason to allow evil; you claim that Calvinists say that God had no good reason to allow evil, but that He'll be glorified anyhow and that's good enough.

No, you're right that it's not good enough; there must be something else.

I don't see what it might be in the Bible. I'm therefore against doing more than speculating.

In summary, I'd say that you're putting up a straw man. Calvinism doesn't say that God designed a universe that includes evil for His glory; rather, it says that God designed a universe that includes evil for some high purpose, and that because He achieves that high purpose He will receive glory.

There's another way in which your analogy breaks down, by the way: God isn't putting uninvolved parties in danger. God is creating people. One better analogy would be a poverty-stricken couple choosing to have a child -- yes, the child will suffer relative to a wealthy child, but the choice isn't between wealth and poverty, but existence and nonexistence.

wtanksley said...

Moses might have thought that, through his intercession, he actually calmed down an out-of-control angry and spiteful Deity, and talked him out of his plan to destroy the Israelites (Exodus 32).

That's not what Moses wrote. He wrote that he tried to appease God, and God refused; He said that each one who sinned would be punished.

I agree with the idea of progressive revelation, but your interpretation of its leaves far too much to the imagination. Clearly God could afford to allow correctable details like the structure of the cosmos to be incorrectly written; even details like the best way to ensure the support of the poor might be culturally biased, and later generations could correct the errors. But the purpose of God isn't something that moderns can see any better than the ancients; none of us can see it at all unless God reveals it. If the ancient writers wrote something false when they claimed God spoke, then they aren't speaking for Him at all -- and God used Moses to instruct us to ignore those people utterly.

Oh, and another note... John (you say) saw best the purpose of God, since He was so close to Christ and wrote after much thought. John wrote about the "resurrection of judgment" (Joh 5:28-29); he wrote about horrific judgments in his apocalypse, and ends the same with fearsome curses.

Cliff Martin said...

That's not what Moses wrote. He wrote that he tried to appease God, and God refused; He said that each one who sinned would be punished.

I should have been more specific. I was not referring to Exodus 32:30-35, but rather verses 7-14. While some eventually were punished, God's original intent was to destroy the whole nation. Moses talks him out of it, and God changes his mind. Do you read it differently?

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

I'd say that you're putting up a straw man.

Well, if that is so it is the very straw man that I encounter with many, perhaps poorly informed, Calvinists. While I appreciate your more nuanced and thoughtful understandings regarding Calvinism and evil, the argument of Calvinists with whom I have discussed this question is much as I have represented it. If I am able to prod such Calvinists, and help them to see that what you see — "You're right in one major way: what you're describing is not a good theodicy", then so much the better.

Your line of reasoning makes some sense to me in the big picture, on a cosmic scale. But how does it play in people's lives, in everyday "providence". If God is completely sovereign, if every bad thing that happens is a direct reflection of his will, what does redemption mean? what does healing mean? what does deliverance mean? The concept that God steps in to save his child from some dreaded calamity that he himself willed into existence ... what does it mean?

wtanksley said...

While some eventually were punished, God's original intent was to destroy the whole nation.

I apologize for my poor reading skills, and take it back. Moses did write that. (Funny thing is, I read that, and then when I finished the chapter I went back and misread it as being the following conversation between Aaron and Moses. I'm totally wrong.)

Furthermore, it's a common theme in the Bible; as Jonah complained, God habitually relents from promised judgments when the people obey His commands. It looks like judgments are God's intended tool to cause the people to change.

On the other hand, your thesis appears to be that God never actually punishes people. That's a little ... odd. Christ refused to comment on whether a given group of people were actually being punished, but then He made the same threat God made... So was He lying or ignorant when He said that God would punish?

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

On the other hand, your thesis appears to be that God never actually punishes people.

That actually is not my thesis.

It appears to me that the people of the O.T. tended to see God's hand in every weather change, in every military conflict, in every calamity. And they assumed that God used these things to judge. I am suggesting that most weather, most calamity is the result of random processes. God's intervention is the exception, not the rule. I believe that God does 1) intervene to protect people of faith when he is invited to do so, 2) uses calamitous events to speak to people, 3) responds to calamitous events in redemptive ways when invited to, and 4) may at times (I think this would be rare) direct certain calamitous events, again at the invitation of people of faith.

I believe these principles are in keeping with what I read in the N.T., and they are suggested in the Old. But if we take much of the O.T. literally and at face value, we do come away with a different impression.

But this is why I asked you earlier ... do you see God's judgment at work (as some Christians do) in such things as the Indonesian Tsunami or the Kashmir Earthquake? And if your answer is no, do you think (as I do) that the early Israelites would have interpreted those events as judgments of God?

All of this suggests the larger question: Do we understand the workings of God in human affairs more clearly now than, say, Moses did?

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

On the other hand, your thesis appears to be that God never actually punishes people (CONTINUED).

If God does use weather and earthquakes and volcanoes and terrorist attacks and traffic accidents and cancer and AIDS (etc.) to punish people, how do we have any hope of discerning when he is doing so? Are all such events punishment for sin? Or only some?

If we learn that 5 of the 13 people shot today in Binghamton, N.Y. were drug dealers, should we presume that God was judging them? What if 4 of the dead were obedient productive Christians? Were they caught innocently in the divine crossfire? If God was judging Muslims in the Kashmir earthquakes, what of the Christians who were also killed? The whole thing gets so convoluted for me that I look for something that makes better sense.

God graciously responding redemptively to unfortunate events which he neither causes nor overtly allows is more in keeping with what I understand of his nature.

wtanksley said...

That actually is not my thesis.

Ah, okay... It looked like it was.

It appears to me that the people of the O.T. tended to see God's hand in every weather change, in every military conflict, in every calamity.

Why do you say that? I see almost nothing of that -- most of the ascribed interventions are during and immediately following the Exodus, and then there are thousands of years with very few ascriptions; those few are usually allegedly after a prophetic and specific warning.

And they assumed that God used these things to judge.

If a prophet foretold the things, that's eminently reasonable.

I am suggesting that most weather, most calamity is the result of random processes. God's intervention is the exception, not the rule. I believe that God does 1) intervene to protect people of faith when he is invited to do so, 2) uses calamitous events to speak to people, 3) responds to calamitous events in redemptive ways when invited to, and 4) may at times (I think this would be rare) direct certain calamitous events, again at the invitation of people of faith.

I agree almost entirely, except I have no reason to say that God requires the invitation of people of faith.

But if we take much of the O.T. literally and at face value, we do come away with a different impression.

This is (I think) the source of my confusion; it's not the impression I get from the OT. I admit that it's an easy mistake to make, since we humans like to read active agency into every event, but when you put a little thought into how rare the interventions really were and how strongly preconfirmed they were... And how God gave His people a requirement to test anyone claiming to speak for God... It seems likely that it was just as correctable now as it was then.

But this is why I asked you earlier ... do you see God's judgment at work (as some Christians do) in such things as the Indonesian Tsunami or the Kashmir Earthquake?

No.

And if your answer is no, do you think (as I do) that the early Israelites would have interpreted those events as judgments of God?

Some would have; probably relatively few. If a true prophet were in the land, he would have denounced that.

-Wm

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

Okay, I agree I may have overstated my case.

What I do see is a general assumption (you can see in the histories and in the Psalms) that God controls the weather, that he expresses himself in storms, etc. Couple that with the frequent mentions of God's anger, and you come away with a "fear" of God's retribution that strikes me as unhealthy.

Weather is just one example. Are we to presume that God directly controls wind and rain, and earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions, etc? Or are such calamities the result of natural processes from which God has removed his hand? I am suggesting that we are subject to random events. Christians die in airline accidents in equal numbers per capita with heathens. When a young believer is killed tragically in a head-on accident, it troubles me that Christians immediately start speculating on the reasons why God "took her". Invariably, someone at the funeral will say "God must have wanted her up by him." It is the general Christian presumption that God has a purpose in everything. "There are no accidents for the believer." What if, in reality, God is as much saddened by the young woman's untimely and tragic death as are her friends and family. If so (and I suspect it is the case) we do him a horrible disservice with our trite sayings ... "it must have been his will ..." when it may not have been his will at all. HIs will is not being done on the earth, or Jesus would not have instructed us to pray for that to be the case.

We're back to the main point of the O.P. Is God the blueprint planner of horrible tragedies, or is he the exceedingly adept responder and redeemer?

wtanksley said...

What I do see is a general assumption (you can see in the histories and in the Psalms) that God controls the weather, that he expresses himself in storms, etc. Couple that with the frequent mentions of God's anger, and you come away with a "fear" of God's retribution that strikes me as unhealthy.

I'm trying to understand this, and it's not working for me. Yes, there's a lot of illustration of God working through the storm; but it's obviously not exclusive. God works through the storms -- but it rains for the just and the unjust. God punishes the wicked; but Job wasn't being punished, and often the wicked live long and happy lives. This is Old Testament stuff; Job is possibly the oldest of the OT. These people knew -- or should have known -- that God is the God of everyday providence as well as the God of mighty signs, and some of the mighty signs are merely the workings of everyday providence.

The OT is full of nuance, and of people who didn't catch it and had to be reminded. On the topic of nuances in weather, consider Elijah's experience with the wind, landslide, and earthquake as an example.

Are we to presume that God directly controls wind and rain, and earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions, etc? Or are such calamities the result of natural processes from which God has removed his hand? I am suggesting that we are subject to random events.

I hope we don't presume anything; we should only conclude on the grounds of evidence, whether from experience or other people's testimony.

And based on that, I don't think we can put such an exclusive set of alternatives. Yes, God can remove His hand... as a form of judgment, His judgment. He can also apply His hand. And yes, we're subject to random events, but random events are still subject to Him, without being any less random.

I will agree with you (I think) on this: for any specific event, we should never try to read God's communication into it; if God wants to communicate, He uses words and His own Son. The OT people were right to read the Babylonian Captivity as God's judgment because God had warned them of it many times, NOT because the captivity was especially awe-inspiring.

It is the general Christian presumption that God has a purpose in everything. "There are no accidents for the believer."

There's that word again, "presumption". It's common doctrine, yes; since Jesus spent some time telling us not to worry on the grounds that our Father was capable of caring for us, we "presume" that He will care for us.

What if, in reality, God is as much saddened by the young woman's untimely and tragic death as are her friends and family. If so (and I suspect it is the case) we do him a horrible disservice with our trite sayings ... "it must have been his will ..." when it may not have been his will at all.

I have to agree that God weeps with us -- but surely not as we weep. Paul tried to give us some of God's knowledge so that we wouldn't "mourn like those who have no hope".

I agree that "it must have been His will" is weak consolation, but this doesn't mean that it's *not* His will, nor that He didn't see that suffering on our part and His part as the price to pay for His plans.

When God created entropy (as you say and I agree), even if (as you say) He didn't know all the details of what would come of it, surely He did know that suffering would ensue. When people comfort one another with "it's God's will", perhaps they're actually telling each other "this pain has a purpose, and God will see that it is brought about -- even as you, and I, and God, weep together."

His will is not being done on the earth, or Jesus would not have instructed us to pray for that to be the case.

That's open to interpretation -- God's will could be done, but not "as it is in Heaven". But anyhow, that's beside the point.

We're back to the main point of the O.P. Is God the blueprint planner of horrible tragedies, or is he the exceedingly adept responder and redeemer?

That sounds horrible... Let me bounce it back to you. Has God ever blueprint planned a horrible tragedy? Was the Babylonian captivity a judgment of God? Are the events (figurative or not) in Revelations tragedies, and did God plan them? Is Hell planned by God? What is the meaning of the story of the flood -- again, whether you believe it's figurative or not, is it _true_ in any sense? Was the story of Jonah a fib -- again, whether allegory or not, was Jonah being pursued by God or by randomness? Was Jesus handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, or was He handed over by random chance?

In the big picture, our suffering means something profound; your entire story proclaims that. But I say that the "something profound" was intended by God, and that He knew the cost; He wasn't the foolish person who starts to do something without first counting the cost. I don't demand that you agree with some Calvinists that God planned every movement of every grain of dust; just that God knew the cost of what He was doing, and weighed it against the benefits, and concluded that it was worth it... for everyone concerned.

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

I do tend to use strong language ... I know. I am intentionally provocative. Seems that it is the only way to get some people to think things through. You do provide balance, and I will not take issue with your analysis of the Old Testament. Just a couple of comments:

When people comfort one another with "it's God's will", perhaps they're actually telling each other "this pain has a purpose, and God will see that it is brought about -- even as you, and I, and God, weep together."

Perhaps. And if that is what they mean, then I totally agree. I think that is what you would mean, because you have thought through your views on providence much more than most Calvinists, or Calvinist leaning people I’ve known.

I don't demand that you agree with some Calvinists that God planned every movement of every grain of dust; just that God knew the cost of what He was doing, and weighed it against the benefits, and concluded that it was worth it... for everyone concerned.

... and I do agree.

Isaac Gouy said...

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

wtanksley said...

You do provide balance, and I will not take issue with your analysis of the Old Testament.

Heh... Thanks. I think we've covered enough; we disagree, but we respect each other's opinions. Now, let's get on with the thing that started me reading this blog... The story of entropy, and man's role in this universe.

wtanksley said...

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


Wow, good point. Yes, I don't think God sent us charging into massed artillery for no reason...

And I like how this brings up the topic of spiritual warfare, a deep Christian doctrine.

Cliff Martin said...

wtanksley,

let's get on with the thing that started me reading this blog... The story of entropy, and man's role in this universe.

Yes! And I look forward to your contributions. In the next post in the series, I plan to look at the purpose of man from a different angle, asking the question, "Is Man Central to Creation?" Did God create the universe for the primary purpose of creating human-kind? I think most thoughtful believers would answer no to such a question. And yet, so much of our theology assumes that is the case.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi All,

POE is probably the main reason I see for thinking that there is no god.

Once again Rich I don't recognise any of this at all;

"Then why accept the skeptic's premise? They are not really interested in solving thr POE, all they want to do is put us on the defensive and dance to their tune. Just because some 'smart guy' presented a definition over 2000 years ago does not mean we have to bow down to his formulation."

It would appear to me that this hit to the truth of it;

"As Epicurus proved, the PoE is unanswerable unless you concede some mystery. Is that not faith?" - thanks Tom.

I am happy to just look at natural evil - in fact I suggested it in another thread.

- - -

So here I am, not having been brought up (indoctrinated) into a faith, and I am telling you guys that this is a problem, a major barrier to belief for someone who has not been simply told to believe something but instead has an enquiring mind and a natural penchant for critical thinking, and what have you got to offer?

Happy easter.

Regards,

Psi

Cliff Martin said...

And Happy Easter to you, my friend!

I think you know that the PoE poses the deepest dilemma for my faith. If I were an atheist, like you, it would be the most compelling rationale for non-belief. Since I choose to "cleave ... to the sunnier side of doubt" (Tennyson), my search for a meaningful solution to the riddle is filled with hope. On this day, I am reminded that God is (as I believe!) in the very process of resurrecting all things! And I cling stubbornly to my persuasion that, in the present order of things, we can catch some hints at how that process is unfolding, and then choose to cooperate. 

I recently told an atheist friend of mine of my hope that, even in unbelief, he could by his lifestyle cooperate with that process. This, I believe, you are endeavoring to do, whether or not you acknowledge the process. And so, with all sincerity, I wish you a joyous Resurrection Day!

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Cliff,

I hope all is well with you.

I am already full of hope thanks. I have plenty of purpose too.

The old meaning and awe buckets are full too.

Not much stubbornness over here though.

- - -

I am really enjoying the first course of a science degree. (part time - still got a full time job) I knew I would enjoy the physics but the earth science and geology really blew me away and I have just had an epiphany with functional groups in chemistry. Can't wait for biology in the next section.

- - -

Heard a documentary on Sagan last night. Brought back the full spiritual power of the Cosmos series. It helped me realise that my "hope" is a flame originally lit by Carl in this series and that his "Demon haunted world" is probably the closest thing to dogma I have.

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

I just don't buy the idea that Epicurus 'proved' anything except an answer to his own problem statement. I don't accept his premise, or that his 'solution' is the only one.

I would suggest this article from Touchstone Magazine for your consideration:

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=21-05-020-f

If the link doesn't work, the title is "The Skeptical Inquirer" by Edward Tingley, in the June 2008 issue.

Rich G.

Psiloiordinary said...

Thanks Rich,

A quick reaction;

First section; empty name calling.

Second section; "Modern man confronts the question of God from the starting point of skepticism, the conviction that there is no conclusive physical or logical evidence that the God of the Bible exists."

Third section; paraphrased - god exists but he is hiding.

:-) :-)

Hang on. If you mean by hiding he would look and behave just like he didn't exist until we die and he then gets to torture me for eternity for thinking that of all the things a god might be, a flaming pillock, wasn't one of them, then you have got me.

:-) :-)

Section four;
Paraphrase again;"The atheists aren't looking for evidence that god is hiding."

You mean god is hiding but we can still see him? He's not very godlike is he?

BTW Have you ever heard of something called special pleading or ad hoc reasoning?

fifth section; paraphrased again; "There is another way of knowing apart from evidence and logic. We must be sceptical of scepticism."

This would appear to be unsupported illogical claptrap. But please correct me where I am missing out on the logic or evidence . . . oh I see . . .??

Ok it's in my heart. The evidence is in my heart.

Very convincing.

Oh hang on there was an "un" missing from somewhere in that last sentence.

Rich - I gave up at this point.

I guess that proves you right Rich.

I better get used to those flames eh?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

BTW Have you ever heard of something called special pleading or ad hoc reasoning?

I hadn't, but I went looking. Are you talking the 'Classic' version :
Special pleading means applying to other people a set of standards that one is not willing to apply to oneself, without offering sufficient grounds, called the relevant difference, to support such exemption. Special pleading follows the form:
* If Person X is in set P then Q happens to person X
* Person A is in set P
* Person A cites R circumstance, unrelated to P or Q
* Therefore Person A is not subject to Q


or the dKosopedia version: Special Pleading is a logical fallacy or illogical argument which asserts that subjective understanding gained from either some direct experience or some group identity is superior to any other claim for truth based on logic and evidence. This fallacy is often deployed to avoid having to defend the indefensible or rescue a proposition being successfully challenged by logical argument.?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > "The Skeptical Inquirer" by Edward TingleyWould you agree that the author wrote that article expecting it to be read by Christians rather than by "the scrawny ones"? Is he preaching to the choir?

Perhaps you shouldn't expect what he's written even to be interesting to those he calls "the scrawny ones" and "early quitters" simply because he isn't writing to interest or persuade them - he's writing to reassure the faithful.



Here's a straightforward explanation of special pleading -

"... when we selectively omit significant information because it would weigh against a position we are promoting. The result of those omissions is a serious distortion of the subject under discussion." p127 Being Logical

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Here's an analogy that I think matches his argument;

"There is of course no cheese made of concrete, but this is a position held by scrawny early quitters. If they would just use their brains a bit and think for a moment then they would realise that if, in our hearts, we think that cheese can be made of concrete then they would see the obvious truth - that cheese can be made of concrete."

- - -

I can't think of anything at all that this "proof of the heart" wouldn't work for e.g.

Forget evidence - vaccines are evil - give me your money for this magic water instead. (Homeopathy)

Let me twist this bone in your neck and cure your liver disease - for a price of course. (Chiropractic)

I can talk to your dead relatives - its not too epensive. (Psychics)

- - -

I am thinking you would agree that the "evidence of the heart" reasoning wouldn't count for these obvious ( but very popular) scams.

So why does it count for your particular god?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

i think you are missing the main point. That is the assumption that what we are unable to observe with the instruments we have, does not exist.

The fact that you and I are self-aware beings is not something that can be objectively measured - it can only be subjectively experienced, or at least assumed. Emotions can be manipulated with chemistry, but cannot be objectively experienced. Artistic expression can be seen, heard and touched, but neither the artist's message nor the observer's induced response can be predicted with any scientific certainty. We have not the tools to measure them, but we all know these things exist.

The very fact that an unconscious universe can give rise to creatures that can even ask these kinds of questions should indicate that just maybe there is another kind of force at work.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

I didn't say measure.

We can observe all those other things you mentioned.

Observation is good enough for me.

Your last sentence appears to have the second half of it missing. The bit where you give us a reason for thinking cheese can be made of concrete other than a desire for it to be so.

Regards

Psi

Cliff Martin said...

Psi,

We can observe all those other things you mentioned. Observation is good enough for me.You can observe the art. You can observe the effects of love and hate. I think Rich's point is that you cannot observe the abstract quality of artistic intent ... you can only infer it. You cannot see love or hate, but you know they exist by the observable expressions.

How is this any different than observing beauty and order in the cosmos, and inferring something about intent, purpose, and intelligence of a super-being?

I can tell the difference between oils on a canvas produced in a kindergarten, and oils on a canvas produced in an artists studio. The same powers of observation lead me to profound (if tentative) conclusions about a creator when I gaze into the glorious night sky, or experience the Canadian Rockies.

Should I trust my senses about the art, but doubt what those same senses tell me about the cosmos?

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > How is this any different than observing beauty and order in the cosmos, and inferring something about intent, purpose, and intelligence of a super-being?


It's different in a straightforward easy to understand way:

- in one case, the inferences are not about the existence of an agent, the inferences are merely about "artistic intent"

- in the other case, the inferences are about both the existence and the intent of an agent.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

No. You can't have artistic intent without an artist, I think you'll agree. What you mean is that we just intuitively conclude that if we see paint on the canvass that is orderly and beautiful, we presume artistic intent and our common sense naturally tells us that there was an artist!

So, if I look at creation and see artistic intent, it is all the same as seeing an artist. You really can't have intent without and intender.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > What you mean is ...

No that isn't even slightly like what I mean.

I mean the existence of artists is not a mystery - they are watched while they work, they are filmed while they work, they discuss their work.

The only mystery is "artistic intent".



cliff > So, if I look at creation and see artistic intent, it is all the same as seeing an artist. You really can't have intent without and intender.

If "you really can't have intent without an intender" then it seems your presumption of intent is premature - where's your "intender"?

With no "intender" to show, when you "see artistic intent" you may simply be wrong.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

With no "intender" to show, when you "see artistic intent" you may simply be wrong.Yes, I may be wrong. But I don't think that equates to "my conclusions are illogical", or "my suspicions are invalid". I believe, as I have contented on this blog, that the possibility of a Creator is strongly supported by observable evidence.

But the larger point here is that we all, from skeptic to the most gullible theist, believe in things we cannot see and cannot empirically verify. Skeptics may try to deny it, but they are believers in the unseen ... again and again ... based on inference from observable data.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Cliff,

Btw I found your latest posting very moving and I am thinking of the best way to formulate a response.

---

Re the comments above;

We see artists and the process of their painting, we talk with lovers.

Apart from a wish to be created you have nothing even slightly indicative of the existance of one.

The best you can do is point to gaps in our knowledge and say it seems to you that your particular god is in one.

Here is a challenge for ypu both; Give me an example of scientific induction or skeptical belief which you think matches the same level of evidence as you have for god.

By your argument above this should be easy.

Fire away.

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

Here is a challenge for ypu both; Give me an example of scientific induction or skeptical belief which you think matches the same level of evidence as you have for god.Faith in the idea that that "scientific induction" can explain everything - that is that if 'it' cannot be proven by science 'it' does not exist.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Ok lets play that game shall we?

Show me something that exists for which there is no proof at all then.

Does this kind of dictionary mangling really feel like a proper argument to you?

So, for probably the sixth time on this blog - I don't simply assume or have faith that evidence and logic works - I can point to billions of examples of it working(OK i've tried a million times to stop exaggerating;-))

Rich - you give me one example where logic and evidence doesn't work AND, while your at it, also show me why it somehow works for your god but won't also work for Leprechauns.

Hume had it right - I bet you leave your house by the door and not the upstairs window.

PS of course if logic and evidence is not allowed for my case that god seems to be missing then of course you can't use it for your case he is there.

A discussion with no logic and evidence rapidly gets silly. e.g.

Scooby Doo - therefore - god does not exist - QED

;-)

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

Show me something that exists for which there is no proof at all then.I did, and you missed it. Here's another: A thought.

So, for probably the sixth time on this blog - I don't simply assume or have faith that evidence and logic works - I can point to billions of examples of it workingAh, but you *are* assuming so - based on empirical evidence. And as an engineer, empirical evidence does not constitute proof, it can only describe the behavior of observed data. The Manning's Equation, as one of many empirical (experimentally derived) formula, can be used to estimate water flows in pipes, but it cannot be used to prove anything, nor can it be logically or theoretically derived. In addition, empirical observation and formulations can only be used to describe expected behavior in the applicable field.

If something works one billion out of one billion trials, it only gives a measurable likelihood of an outcome the one-billionth+next time. It is not logical certainty, especially in the light of cosmic infinity of space+time

Rich G.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

We are talking about induction.

We are talking about indicative evidence.

If you ate going to change the subject please have the good manners to realize you have done so old chap.

Btw your definition of proof seems to rule out any of the uses of the word in the real world except msyhemstical proof.

Can you have a stab at any one the previous challenges I gave you now?

Cheers,

Psi

Psiloiordinary said...

* are
* mathematical

Cliff Martin said...

Psi,

Give me an example of scientific induction or skeptical belief which you think matches the same level of evidence as you have for god.

It would be pointless to try. You have made it clear that belief in a Creator is as baseless as belief in Leprechauns.

So, I propose that you take the challenge. Give me all your evidence for belief in Leprechauns that you think matches my evidence for God.

Pointless, huh.

I have presented my case for belief in a Creator. It is by no means conclusive. I know that. But I think it provides a reasonable basis for faith. I have never considered Leprechaunism to have any underlying evidence. But you see the two belief systems to be identical.

Rich G. said...

Psi:

Can you have a stab at any one the previous challenges I gave you now?I already did. You sound like you don't really want any answers - all you have done is dismiss then by changing the form of your question. And then you say I am changing the subject.

Just for the sake of argument, I want proof that you exist as a real person and are not some form of Turing Test for me.

How you gonna do that?

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

I don't see any point in debating with people who can't at least make some attempt to engage, other than to demonstrate their unwillingness to engage. You just made my point for me - thanks.

Whether you like it or not any reader can see the record of this conversation and judge the quality of the argument by what you have written and not your own summary of what you have written.

Regards,

Psi
( or is it just a part of Rich's brain playing tricks on him? woooooo )

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > Yes, I may be wrong. But I don't think that equates to "my conclusions are illogical", or "my suspicions are invalid".

For sake of argument, let's say that form of argument was valid, where did you demonstrate the premise that there was "artistic intent"?

Without stating the criteria for validity - "my suspicions are invalid" - doesn't mean anything much.



cliff > Skeptics may try to deny it, but they are believers in the unseen ... again and again ... based on inference from observable data.Please provide an example of what you mean by "they are believers in the unseen" - maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong , but it's difficult to know until you say something specific.



cliff > Give me all your evidence for belief in Leprechauns that you think matches my evidence for God.Does the existence of Leprechauns create a logical contradiction? Which is to ask are Leprechauns a logical possibility?

Rich G. said...

Psi:

Let's try another angle.

Are you aware that we inhabit a single 3-brane within a 10- (or 11-) dimensional mutiverse?

If you consider the theoretical inhabitants of a 2-brane ("Flatlanders"), they would not only be unable to "see" 3-space objects or beings, they would be unable to see other Flatlanders inhabiting other 2-branes,, whether separated by infinitesimal
or macroscopic distances. They would be lacking not only the tools, they could not 'turn' them to face any off-sheet direction. The only way any one could 'prove' to a 2-brane inhabitant that there *is* a 3-dimensional existence would be for a 'higher' being to enter (or intersect) the 'lower' plane. Even a jump from one plane to another would require movement through a direction that he is incapable going without outside help.

Likewise, we inhabitants of our particular space-time can only theorize about the existence of living beings that may inhabit 'nearby' 3-branes, or higher-order universes. And we certainly cannot go there without 'outside' intervention.

As I hear you, you would deny the possibility of there being *any* higher-order living beings simply because none of us can turn our telescopes 'off the page' so to speak.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

Please provide an example of what you mean by "[skeptics] are believers in the unseen"

love
justice
black holes
gravity
enmity
quarks
relativity
dreams
Shakespeare
RF
courage
happiness
dark matter

The list could go on and on.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Cliff,

There is loads of evidence for all of these.

Do you really think that there isn't?

If you want me to list some I can but it seems trivially silly.

Let me know,

Regards,

Psi

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

If we do then will you try to answer the questions?

Here goes - branes are an interesting implication of string theory. This is very much in the realm of a hypothesis.

I don't know whether it is true or not. I even have doubts about whether or not it is testable - and if we can't test something then it really is just like Leprechauns isn't it?

Science works the opposite way to the way you seem to be implying it works.

Science works by trying to disprove things, if it survives lots of attempts to do this - like evolution for example then it achieves some level of truth.

Indicative evidence is all I am asking for when it goes to your god. It is you and Cliff who have subtly moved away from this and instead starting using words like "unseen" and "proof".

Regards,

Psi

PS I prefer the hypothesis that we are actually a hologram - there does appear to be a way to test this and in fact we have a satellite which is going to attempt the measurements ;-)

Cliff Martin said...

Psi,

There is loads of evidence for all of these.
Do you really think that there isn't?


Of course there is! I think you missed the point, coming into a discussion midstream.

Here is my original point (from an April 14 comment): "But the larger point here is that we all, from skeptic to the most gullible theist, believe in things we cannot see and cannot empirically verify. Skeptics may try to deny it, but they are believers in the unseen ... again and again ... based on inference from observable data." Isaac then asked me to list such things.

Just as there is "loads of evidence" for black holes and the existence of courage, so there is evidence for a Creator God ... At least I see plenty of evidence whether you do or not. The point, obviously, is that these things (including God) are all inferences, difficult or impossible to prove empirically.

At times, it seems, you insist that theists produce "proof" for their deity. Yet you readily accept other phenomena based on inference. That was my point.

btw, when exactly did I subtly shift into using the word "proof"? and in what context. Certainly the word "unseen" is appropriate to this discussion, wouldn't you agree?

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Cliff,

I am not demanding or evenly politely asking for proof of your god - just any kind of indicative evidence will do - anything at all that you can base an induction on that isn't totally ambiguous.

Fire away.

Regards,

Psi

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > love, justice, black holes, gravity, enmity, quarks, relativity, dreams, Shakespeare, RF, courage, happiness, dark matter

The list could go on and on.


The list could go on and on - and it still wouldn't be an example, it would still be a word list.

Perhaps you enjoy the game of letting a discussion proceed and then saying that isn't what you meant by that word - I find it dull.

I asked for an example - please talk through an example, fleshing out the details so we can all gain a correct understanding of what you mean by "[skeptics] are believers in the unseen".

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

Maybe you enjoy the game of letting a discussion proceed and then saying that isn't what you meant by that word- I find it dull.

Me too! Actually, Isaac, I never do this intentionally. It is the way you argue (which I find dull and unproductive) that compels me to go back and explain myself. Your pattern is to search my comments and catch me in some perceived contradiction. (btw, anyone can use this ploy, and anyone, including yourself, can be trapped in their own words by someone who chooses to use this tactic.) The result is that I must go back and clarify what I meant by this word or that word so you can see that I did not contradict myself. And yes, this makes for very, very boring exchanges (as other readers have told me in person.)

As for choosing an example from the list ... I invite you to do so. Tell me, can you find anything on the list in which you do not believe? And can you then tell me what empirical validation you have for that belief. I made a simple statement: "skeptics believe in things that are unseen." I did not think it would be contentious. I did not consider it profound. I anticipated no controversy. Seemed like a simple, obvious truth. You apparently challenge that statement, and you asked me to provide an example. I suggested 13 examples and you complain that it is overkill! Well, choose just one and tell me how it fails to demonstrate the truth of my statement. Do you deny believing in anything you cannot see?

Perhaps we are completely missing each other. I'll try to make it even more simple:

Do you believe in black holes? Have you ever seen one?

Do you believe in Shakespeare? Have you ever seen him?

Do you believe in gravity? Have you ever seen it?

If your answers to any of those couplet sets was "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, congratulations! you now understand my very simple statement.

By the way, there is no shame in admitting you believe in something you cannot see. I did not mean to attack skepticism, or entrap skeptics. It was just a simple observation of the obvious.

Cliff Martin said...

Psi,

I am not demanding or evenly politely asking for proof of your god - just any kind of indicative evidence will do - anything at all that you can base an induction on that isn't totally ambiguous. Fire Away.

Excuse me for feeling like I'm always firing at a moving target. Just what do you mean by "ambiguous". If you mean that the evidence cannot possibly have another explanation, then no evidence will ever rise to your standard. But is that a realistic standard for evidence? If so, no court of law would ever admit circumstantial evidence in a criminal trial. But this is done all the time. If our legal system adopted your standard, there would never be a case decided upon the preponderance of evidence. Only "unambiguous" smoking guns. By such a standard, we would have to throw out most of the evidence for relativity, wouldn't we? While relativity is accepted as the best explanation for the evidence we have collected, it is not the only possible explanation. And when the Theory of Everything is finally worked out, we may find Einstein's theories to be altered beyond recognition. Do you agree? So then, does relativity have any evidence we could consider to be non-ambiguous?

Maybe I don't understand. Just what do you mean by "evidence that is not ambiguous"?

Isaac Gouy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > Do you believe in black holes? Have you ever seen one?

As far as I know black holes are part of current mathematical models that describe experimental observations of the universe.

That's not something I hold as a belief - if astrophysicists do away with black holes from their models and create new models that better describe the universe I will be unperturbed.



cliff > Do you believe in Shakespeare? Have you ever seen him?

I know there are plays and poems that are ascribed to the authorship, hundreds of years ago, of a person we now call Shakespeare.

That's not something I hold as a belief - if historians do away with Shakespeare and share the corpus between other persons, I'd like to think I could learn anew.



cliff > Do you believe in gravity? Have you ever seen it?

As far as I know gravity is part of current mathematical models that describe experimental observations of the universe.

That's not something I hold as a belief - if physicists do away with gravity from their models and create new models that better describe the universe I will be unperturbed.



cliff > Skeptics may try to deny it, but they are believers in the unseen...

Do skeptics try to deny that, or are you arguing a strawman?

People tend to believe the world is still there, even if unseen when they close their eyes.

People tend to believe their Great Great Great Grandparents lived.


What do you even mean by "skeptics"?

"Skepticism and theism go well together" - The article Rich G. cited

You don't seem to mean those who say there is no truth or those who say the human mind is incapable of attaining truth.

Are you just using "skeptics" as a bad word for those who don't share your religion?

Rich G. said...

Psi:

You wrote:

I am not demanding or evenly politely asking for proof of your god - just any kind of indicative evidence will do - anything at all that you can base an induction on that isn't totally ambiguous.

Just to be clear in your meaning...

"Induction": Observation -> Hypothesis -> Test -> Theory

Is this what you mean?

Isaac:

You introduced this definition"
"... when we selectively omit significant information because it would weigh against a position we are promoting. The result of those omissions is a serious distortion of the subject under discussion." p127 Being Logical

This seems to be a novel definition from all my research, and does not fit the classical definition at all.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

A clarification:

As I understand it, a "special pleading" would takt the form of "The speed limit is 55, but I can go faster because my dad's a cop", or any other form of introducing a special exception not available to everyone else. Some "special pladinds" are valid, like self-defence, but most are not.

It is not leaving out unfavorable information.

Rich G. said...

Edit: "Special pladinds" should read "special pleadings". Darn small keyboard on my Windows Mobile phone...

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Folks,

I give up.

Kind regards to all,

Psi

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

Do you feel like you are dodging my questions? trying to hide behind technical use of language? Because it sure sounds like that to me. My point was a simple one. Let me try a different approach:

"We all accept things based on inference."There. Do you disagree?

Skeptic is a term with multiple meanings. Sometimes it means “a person inclined to question or doubt all accepted opinions.” I often use it this way, and I have often included myself as a such a skeptic.

Sometimes skeptic is used of “a person who doubts the truth of Christianity and other religions; an atheist or agnostic.” I often use it this way. Usually the context makes this clear. This is how we use all words with more than one meaning.

I never use the term pejoratively.

In this present discussion, it does not matter. You can plug either definition into the statement, and it does not change the meaning of the statement. It was a simple (I should think entirely uncontroversial) observation that all of us accept certain theories, beliefs, truths, understandings (call them what you will) inferentially without demanding empirical verification. If you choose to go on challenging that simple observation, be my guest. I’ll not be responding. Its like debating whether grass is green.


Psi,

I share your sentiment.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > Do you feel like you are dodging my questions? trying to hide behind technical use of language? Because it sure sounds like that to me.

Those comments don't point to my words and show them to be mistaken or unclear, they make accusations about me.

If you think my words are mistaken then why don't you say how they are mistaken?

If you think my words are unclear then why don't you say where they are unclear?



cliff > "We all accept things based on inference."

1) How could that be true for those who say there is no truth or those who say the human mind is incapable of attaining truth - philosophical skeptics?

2) Inference is just the move "from one idea that is known to be true to a second idea that is recognized as true on the force of the first idea" p47 Being Logical

Did you mean induction?



cliff > It was a simple (I should think entirely uncontroversial) observation that all of us accept certain theories, beliefs, truths, understandings (call them what you will) inferentially without demanding empirical verification.

1) Do you see no relevant difference between "theories, beliefs, truths, understandings"?

2) For sake of argument, let's accept your observation at face value - is it just an observation of "sloppy thinking"?

3) Again, are you talking about deductive inference or inductive inference?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > This seems to be a novel definition from all my research, and does not fit the classical definition at all.

Rich G. > It is not leaving out unfavorable information.

Here's an ordinary dictionary definition - "(general use) a specious or unfair argument favouring the speaker's point of view".

Is the important thing that we use a particular definition, or is the important thing that we define our terms, so we can avoid vagueness and ambiguity and confusion?

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

Here is the dictionary meaning for inference which I am using:

Inference. a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.

Simple.

Do you see no relevant difference between "theories, beliefs, truths, understandings"?

Obviously there are differences. You still are not getting the point, apparently. I don’t care about the distinctions between belief and theory and understanding. I’m merely saying that everyone has some of them (like maybe they accept theories, but, they reject beliefs) which are unsupported by empirical data.

Don’t make this more complicated than it is.

I’ll try to be even more clear:

We (human beings) all (from skeptical to gullible) accept (believe, accept, or understand) things (notions, ideas, theories, beliefs, understandings, OR truths) based on (founded upon, derived from) inference (a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning).

Do you want me to talk like this all the time?

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

You asked:
Is the important thing that we use a particular definition, or is the important thing that we define our terms, so we can avoid vagueness and ambiguity and confusion?

The latter. It seems to me that you have been switching between 'common' and 'technical' at will, while holding me to the other, when it suits your argument. I only use the 'technical' when I want the precision. Hence, when you used the term "Special Pleading", which has a specific definition, I would assume the narrow use. If all you meant was that I was avoiding and omitting unfavorable information, I would assume you would use plain and simple language to say so.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > It seems to me that you have been switching between...

It seems to me that comment does not point to any specific example - it's an accusation made without possibility of rebuttal.


Rich G. > ... when you used the term "Special Pleading" ...

I didn't - that was Psiloiordinary.

I in all charity provided "a straightforward explanation of special pleading".

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

It seems to me that comment does not point to any specific example - it's an accusation made without possibility of rebuttal.

I used the term "seems" because of a perceived flavour rather than a specific example. It was not intended as an accusation - more of my reaction to your approach.


Rich G. > ... when you used the term "Special Pleading" ...

I didn't - that was Psiloiordinary.


I stand corrected.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > ... more of my reaction to your approachAgain, you say that is my approach but you don't point to any specific example so there's no way for me to show that it is not.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

I wrote that it was my reaction, how could you miss that? And I also wrote it was not based on specific examples, but an overall falvor - did you miss that, too?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. I missed where you said actually that wasn't my approach.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > I don’t care about the distinctions between...

Vaguely - people have some ideas which are unsupported by ...

"empirical - based on observation, experience, or experiment, not on theory" (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

Is that what you meant by "empirical data"?

Psi said...

Come on guys.

There is no such thing as unambiguous evidence.

There is no truth. EVERYTHING is true so nothing is true.

Psiloiordinary said...

BTW did I tell you that I had an invisible dragon in my garage?
Here you go.

Rich G. said...

BTW did I tell you that I had an invisible dragon in my garage?

And I've seen Harvey, too.

Rich G. said...

I read the Carl Sagan article, and do not dispute most of it.

The "church" (in the broadest, universal sense) has, indeed, been rife with gullible people who see God's 'tracks' everywhere from the fall of a leaf to the burn marks on a waffle. It can truly border on the ridiculous. That, coupled with those who want to 'help' by actually contriving evidence (ranging from the hopeful zealot to the outright faker), indeed make it much more difficult to be convincing.

It's like separating a faint radio signal from the loud static.

BTW, do you support SETI? On what evidence?

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Yes I do.

It is exploration.

It is trying to find an answer, not sitting at home with its fingers in its ears pretending it already knows the answer.

Have you got something against exploring?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

I agree that we shouldn't be sitting at home with our fingers in our ears...

But isn't an expectation of finding extraterrestrial intelligence based on an unverifiable probability, without empirical evidence? And all we have found so far are quacks and artifacts. Even if there is anything to be found, what good would it do for all it would be is electromagnetic tracks too old and too distant to be of any use. To me this has even less evidence than what you have been asking for.

BTW, I just finished watching Harvey (the 1950 version with Jimmy Stewart). You may find it germane to the topic at hand.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Do you ever answer any questions at all?

Psi

Psiloiordinary said...

Rich,

Your right.

They should have never set sail over the Atlantic all those years ago should they?

What has an exploration of the universe got to do with your certainty in the existance of a gof based on . . . what was the evidence again?

I don't run my life based on SETI and I don't judge others based on SETI, I don't deny any evidence based on SETI?

Are you in the same conversation as me?

Regards,

Psi

(Braced and ready for yet another change of subject)

Rich G. said...

Do you ever answer any questions at all? Actually, I have - you just did not recognize the answer.

Give me an example of scientific induction or skeptical belief which you think matches the same level of evidence as you have for god. The existence of "Art" Y'all missed my point. 'Art' as observable objects do exist, but the appreciation of 'art' as art is something that objectively exists, but is not subject to rigorous scientific study. It is a strictly subjective and common human experience. A dog may see a sculpture, but will only see it as an inviting object to pee on. A bird will only see it as a perch. The observable fact that human beings recognize art as art cannot be proven, only observed.

Show me something that exists for which there is no proof at all then. I answered this, too. A thoughtObservation is good enough for me Subjective experience is evidence?

There is no such thing as unambiguous evidence. This is not a true statement. Circumstantial evidence is only one form of real evidence that may be ambiguous in application.

What you have called "changing the subject" have been my attempts to flesh out my answers - sorry if they are too oblique.

Rich G. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rich G. said...

Arrggg.... How can I edit a post?

Cliff Martin said...

To all,

Re. Rich's editing question.

Something is haywire with comment formatting. I do not know if it is unique to my site. But when you close an italics, and then double return, the returns disappear when you publish.

Here is the work around I've been using: After I close the italics, I insert a space or two before the double return. Seems to solve the problem.

Sorry, Rich.

~ Cliff

Tom said...

Phew! I didn't know you guys were still at it. It took me a while to get here. Always fun to hear you argue, Psi!

Psi, per your book review, I'm reading "Bad Science". I am now in the chapter on the placebo. What is striking is how real belief can be, and also how belief can heal. While ethereal "belief" is subject to pseudoscience and trickery, it also feels out of the hands of science -- for the moment. In fact, it largely is out of the hands of science right now because it is difficult to test empirically.

As much as our ideologies are a part of us, they are difficult to rattle off in a blog comment or post, but perhaps we can work on such elevator pitches....

Anyway, if a guy takes a placebo and gets healed and you demand an explanation for his healing, he might not be able to give it to you. What he knows is that other people are reporting healing from the pill, and that he experienced it, too, and if he relapses and doesn't take the pill, he feels worse. The pill promises healing, and in this world view, it makes sense. Its healing powers are outside the measurement of science.

Now, let's say with all such pills, it is double-blind -- you don't know if any or all of the pills are placebo, and neither do the people taking the pills. Let's also say that there are a lot of different pills out there. If Joe is convinced that the green one works, but all the others don't, and it's silly for others to be taking them, how will you convince Joe that the green ones are also fake? The presence of other pills and challenges directed at green pill-takers may only serve to solidify Joe's stance that he's got the right pill. How can you convince him that no pills are the best policy?

Cliff Martin said...

Tom,

How can you convince him that no pills are the best policy?

For clarification ... maybe I missed something: if placebos work sometimes (which they do) and if there is no downside (other than your stated view that they are silly), why do we presume that "no pills are the best policy?"

Rich G. said...

In the Babylon 5 episode A Late Delivery from Avalon, Michael York plays a gunnery officer who inadvertently started a war, and went into a delusion that he was King Arthur returned from limbo. Doctor Franklin, in his attempt to snap him back to reality caused more harm instead of healing.

And in Harvey, toward the end when the psychiatrist is preparing Elwood for an injection that will make Harvey disappear, the taxi driver laments:

The Taxi Driver: ...I've been driving this route for 15 years. I've brought 'em out here to get that stuff, and I've drove 'em home after they had it. It changes them... On the way out here, they sit back and enjoy the ride. They talk to me; sometimes we stop and watch the sunsets, and look at the birds flyin'. Sometimes we stop and watch the birds when there ain't no birds. And look at the sunsets when its raining. We have a swell time. And I always get a big tip. But afterwards, oh oh...

Veta Louise Simmons: "Afterwards, oh oh"? What do you mean, "afterwards, oh oh"?

The Taxi Driver: They crab, crab, crab. They yell at me. Watch the lights. Watch the brakes, Watch the intersections. They scream at me to hurry. They got no faith in me, or my buggy. Yet, it's the same cab, the same driver. and we're going back over the very same road. It's no fun. And no tips... After this he'll be a perfectly normal human being. And you know what stinkers they are!

Isaac Gouy said...

Tom > What is striking is how real belief can be, and also how belief can heal.

The body heals itself.

The body heals itself without invoking belief - cuts heal, bones set, infections are defeated,...

The body can be helped to heal itself - the simple act of sitting with eyes closed and slowed breathing does have a significant impact on blood pressure.

The body needs time to heal itself and sometimes a placebo just buys time - belief in the cure means we wait and allow the body the time it needs to heal itself.

(Incidentally, as entertainment from a library you might enjoy Superstition: Belief in the Age of Science.)



Tom > ... how will you convince Joe that the green ones are also fake?

You won't.

Now let's get to the point Cliff's "without demanding empirical verification" "observation" never reached -

Is Joe fooling himself?
Is Joe's belief rational?
Is Joe's belief justified?
Is Joe's thinking simply mistaken?

"The fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc is committed when, in response to a situation where a certain event A happens, followed by another event B, we decide, solely on the basis of A having come before B, that A caused B."

p126 Being Logical


Richard Feynman described science as "what we have learned about how not to fool ourselves" - and Joe doesn't seem to be interested in whether he's fooling himself or not.

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > if there is no downside

What value truth?

Rich G. said...

Tom > ... how will you convince Joe that the green ones are also fake? I think the more important question is 'Why would you?'. It was written long ago: "...for the letter killeth". Sometimes it is the light stories, that while technically false, tell of a deeper truth in ways the most simple-minded can grasp, while the smart ones try to analyze them and miss the whole point.

An observation, if I may. Most of the self-described atheists and 'skeptics' I have interacted with seem to have lost the sense of whimsy, and have only ridicule left. That, and a drive to expose "the facts" regardless of the cost.

I would much rather say with Elwood P. Dowd "Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac and Tom,

I agree that truth has value for its own sake. But are there not times when our better judgment allows harmless illusions to persist? My question had more to do with Tom's apparent assumption that "no pills is the best policy". Given that placebos help (maybe for the reasons Isaac cites, maybe not ... placebos may offer an assist to the bodies natural healing through optimistic attitudes), I was merely wondering why Tom would say that no pills is the best policy.

It brings us back to the question we sparred on earlier ... why do certain atheists (e.g. Dawkins) claim the world would be better off without faith. There are obvious downsides to religion, but some atheists seem to have trouble admitting that there have been some very positive benefits (personally and societally) to faith that would be very difficult to quantify. Assuming for the moment all faith is bogus, how can we be certain that the world would be a better place without it?

Assuming that faith is no more than a mental crutch which helps certain people cope with life, is it really worse than endless psychotherapy or mood-altering drugs?

Isaac Gouy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > I agree that truth has value for its own sake. But are there not times when our better judgment allows harmless illusions to persist?

If truth has value is the lie harmless?


cliff > "no pills is the best policy"

Do pills have no cost? Do crutches not limit movement? What opportunities are lost that could have been pursued?


cliff > ... why do certain atheists (e.g. Dawkins) claim the world would be better off without faith.

"Chapter 8 (Dawkins’ defense of his own hostility toward people of faith)"


cliff > Assuming for the moment all faith is bogus, how can we be certain that the world would be a better place without it?

On being certain - Death and Taxes.

The Philosophy Gym: 25 Short Adventures in Thinking is both entertaining and informative.


cliff > Assuming that faith is no more than a mental crutch which helps certain people cope with life, is it really worse than endless psychotherapy or mood-altering drugs?

Is it really worse than blissful contentment?

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Guys,

One point to make then please rework each of your last few posts ;-)

TWO subjects here;

A) The existence or not of god being true or real (if any of you think a concept of truth is worth anything at all).

B) Whether "belief" itself exists (I think we all agree it does) and has real effects on real people, really. (again we all think we think that this is a real thought).

So I would like any evidence for A) please. While you are at it, anything at all on why B) has anything at all to do with A) would be nice.

- - -

BTW Rich is your middle name "Storm"?

Although I see you have now deleted a sweeping judgmental comment on anyone who doesn't agree with you and instead replaced it with . . . oh . . .

I mean the one about picking on the fact that your arguments don't make any sense and so missing the point of them.

It was priceless - still, you have deleted it I suppose so I forgive you and take hope from the fact that you did so.

Try this.

B+++++ for ammunition?

Regards,

Psi

BTW the medical organisations of the world think it is unethical to lie to patients by using placebo in general practice.

What does the bible tell you about lying?

Condoms and the pope anyone?

Cliff Martin said...

Psi,

Take a deep breath ...

I was merely asking questions. I was not defending placebos, or bogus faith. I was just asking why we presume it is always a good thing to bust up peoples illusions, even when those very illusions are credited for assisting mental health, or physical health, or for a sense of well-being.

This is not some new point of view for me. I was saying simply this: "Supposing all beliefs in a deity are bogus. Even if that were so, is society benefited from dispelling all such beliefs when billions of people find solace and comfort in them? And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?"

Of course, Psi, I don't agree with the supposition. Of course I value truth. For the sake of this question, that is beside the point. Of course, the question and its answer has nothing to do with proving God's existence, something we all agree is impossible to do,

There is no right or wrong answer to my question. I don't know how I would answer it myself. But I know that many atheists presume (as Tom's statement seemed to) that dispelling all belief in God would be a good thing. I'm just curious how this view is supported.

Rich G. said...

Psi:

It was priceless - still, you have deleted it I suppose so I forgive you and take hope from the fact that you did so.So you know what was deleted? It was an edit to correct a typo that didn't work, so I deleted it. There was nothing else in it.

Tom said...

Sorry to post and run earlier.

My raising placebos was perhaps a poor analogy that has taken us further off course. My point was to use it as an example of how beliefs can be built on evidential support but without proof, and that in the absence of proof to build that belief, it can be difficult to communicate the belief to someone else who does not share the same belief.

I'd like to explore placebos and belief, nihilistic fears of atheism, as well as the problem of evil, in other posts. This one is getting hard to navigate!

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?"

And working with horses is credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions...

And when we move beyond the anecdote and ask - Do the credited benefits differ from "the mental and physical healing and overcoming destructive addictions" achieved without such beliefs (or horses) ? - we'll have taken a step on the road to knowledge.


Tom > how beliefs can be built on evidential support but without proof

I don't mean to pick on Tom, the same point applies to much of what has been said over the last week.

These are questions of Epistemology.

The questions have been studied as part of philosophy for thousands of years.

Philosophers have different opinions on these questions but at least they seem to agree on how to structure the questions.


Cliff may say - "Don’t make this more complicated than it is" - but not understanding the distinctions makes for a muddle.


(Tom > This one is getting hard to navigate! Yes.)

Rich G. said...

Have you seen this from The Cranky Young Catholic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvmR1exv0ro&NR=1

I found it while cruising YouTube for G.K.Chesterton clips. I think he brings some fresh insight into this whole debate.

Rich G.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

I am on the committee of the BCSE (read as british NCSE).

I never fail to be amazed at how the creationists in the USA have such an incredibly parochial approach.

OF COURSE you can believe in god and science.

What is your view on these points;

Do most creationists in the states know that the majority of Christians in the world don't have a problem with evolution/science.

Do they realise it was ever so - well since very very early christian times anyway? Have they heard of St Augustine?

Do they appreciate that good ole US creationism is a product of the early twentieth century?

Interested in your opinion.

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

What is your view on these points;

Do most creationists in the states know that the majority of Christians in the world don't have a problem with evolution/science.


I cannot speak for 'most creationists', but I realize this. And I don't have a problem with the science.

Do they realise it was ever so - well since very very early christian times anyway? Have they heard of St Augustine?

Having read Augustine as well as as many of the first-century church fathers as I can get my electronic hands on, I realize this, too.

Do they appreciate that good ole US creationism is a product of the early twentieth century?I do. But sadly, I think you are right about a large fraction of those who self-identify as Christians.

Rich G.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. do you see why Cliff's "And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?" comment would be described as special pleading?

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Rich G. do you see why Cliff's "And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?" comment would be described as special pleading?

Not categorically. In some or even many individual cases, probably. But not as a universal statement.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Upon further reflection, I deny your assertion about Cliff's comment. It is a simple observation about what some other people have testified to. The question about whether they are right, wrong or delusional is immaterial to his statement. His statement stands or falls on whether other people have made the claim.

Cliff Martin said...

Isaac,

My statement might indeed be special pleading if I were making an argument. Both you and Psi make the mistake a presuming that, when I ask a question, I am predisposed toward a certain answer, or that I even have a position. If you disagree with the premise, say so. I am merely asking, "if placebos and questionable, even bogus religious belief are claimed to improve health for some, well-being for others, why do certain people presume that the world would be better off without them?"

Asking the question is not making an argument. And if I am not making an argument, I cannot be using "special pleading" by definition (special pleading being a form of argumentation).

You've answered the question, and I respect your answer. For me, the jury is still out, but I am inclined to agree with your answers.

Psi,

At the close of the 19th Century, some American Protestants were framing their response to theological Liberalism and textual higher-criticism. This was the birth of the American Fundamentalist movement. Two leaders were at the fore: Charles Hodge and B.B. Warfield. Hodge felt the new movement should be anti-evolutionary. Warfield did not (he in fact accepted most of Darwin's theory). Hodge won the day, and the rest is history. Very few Fundamentalists are aware that their great hero, B.B. Warfield, had no issue with evolution.

The strength of resistance to evolution/science among most American Fundamentalist believers is quite strong, and very discouraging to me personally.

Rich G. said...

Psi:

BTW Rich is your middle name "Storm"?

No.

But I have to wonder if "I am a tiny, insignificant, ignorant bit of carbon. I have one life; it is short and unimportant...", then what's the point of this, or any debate? Especially if we have to live as if that statement is untrue?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > His statement stands or falls on whether other people have made the claim.

For sake of argument, let's say some have made the claim - that doesn't address the issue of special pleading.

Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of religious belief without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit.


Rich G. It is a simple observation about what some other people have testified to.Hypothetically, if your neighbour went around town saying that "some" had said they saw you commiting morally repugnant acts, would your neighbour have made a simple observation about what some other people have testified to?

Isaac Gouy said...

cliff > My statement might indeed be special pleading if I were making an argument...

I'm not going to quarrel about whether or not you were making an argument - as an example of special pleading your statement will work fine.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Hypothetically, if your neighbour went around town saying that "some" had said they saw you commiting morally repugnant acts, would your neighbour have made a simple observation about what some other people have testified to?

That would depend upon whether or not the other people were actually telling him that.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Sorry mate, I didn't realise that the truth of the matter revolved around whether or not you want it to be true.

In that case there is no point in even opening your eyes (isn't science just human beings opening their eyes?) let alone arguing with anyone who enjoys looking around them.

Just go back to sleep and enjoy the dream.

Regards,

Psi

Psiloiordinary said...

BTW Rich,

When you publish a post/comment it appears in my RSS feed.

When you delete it, it removes it from this page but remains in my RSS reader.

Only when I visit the page did I realise you had deleted it.

So nothing sinister going on - just the wonders of technology.

Regards,

Psi

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > That would depend upon whether or not the other people were actually telling him that.You seem to think no responsibility rests on a person who repeats third-hand comments - as if they had no choice but to repeat those third-hand comments?

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

You seem to think no responsibility rests on a person who repeats third-hand comments - as if they had no choice but to repeat those third-hand comments?

That's a separate issue from the one you were arguing.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. you made no reply to the point I was arguing -

"Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of religious belief without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."

Rich G. said...

Rich G. you made no reply to the point I was arguing -

do you see why Cliff's "And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?" comment would be described as special pleading?

"Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of religious belief without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."



You have not changed your question enough to warrant answering it again. I still do not see it as a "special pleading" and don't know why that point would be so important to your argument.

If the structure of the statement is a "special pleading", then I can freely change the nouns (without changing the structure of the sentence) ant the result would still be a "special pleading" thusly:

"And some such [medical practices] have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?"

"Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of [medical practices] without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."


or even:

"And some such [city buses] have been credited (by some) for [transportation to work], and [going to the airport]?"

"Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of [city buses] without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."


These statements all have the same structure, so they would still be "special pleadings". That is unless you are changing your definitions so freely as to be whatever you want it to be for the moment

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. you hadn't "heard of something called special pleading".

In all charity I've pointed out a straightforward explanation of special pleading.

In all charity I've pointed out an example of special pleading.

You say you do not see it as "special pleading" - perhaps you are mistaken.

Rich G. said...

Rich G. you hadn't "heard of something called special pleading".I had not - so I went to 20 or 30 sources to make sure I understood what I was talking about before answering last time.

In all charity I've pointed out a straightforward explanation of special pleading.

In all charity I've pointed out an example of special pleading.

You say you do not see it as "special pleading" - perhaps you are mistaken.
Perhaps. But the harder you try, the less I think so. What I do think is that you have taken the casual definition and stretched the application so far as to make it no definition at all.

"And some such [confessions] have been credited (by [me]) for [avoiding several speeding tickets], and [skating with a verbal warning]?"

"[Rich]'s statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of [confessing] without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."
I submit this form using your format - you may call it an example of "special pleading", but it call it what it was. The truth.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. on the charitable assumption that you would like to understand the philosophy professor's definition that I shared, I will try to help.


Rich G. > I submit this form using your format - you may call it an example of "special pleading", but it call it what it was. The truth.

You seem to be caught up on whether or not the particular form of words is a true statement - that isn't what "special pleading" is about.

It isn't about the truth of the words that were said in the statement, "special pleading" is about what was not said in the statement.

It's about the difference between being an honest witness and an honest salesperson.

It's about one part of the courtroom oath - "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".


"Cliff's statement is special pleading because it asks us to assess that claimed benefit of [city buses] without telling us about the other ways to obtain that same benefit."

When city buses are all there is, that wouldn't be special pleading.

When there are trains, trams, cabs, shuttle buses, (Cliff's car) ... significant information is being omitted, that is "special pleading".

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

You know what you just admitted?

It isn't about the truth of the words that were said in the statement,...

Are you more concerned with logical construction than the truth?

And the statement about It's about one part of the courtroom oath - "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". isn't about the universe of truth, ii only means not to leave out relevant truth. I've been on the witness stand and have had my "whole truth" statements stricken - until the attorney re-phrased his question to bring them into the record. But you are right about this: being an honest witness. But it is expected that this "honest witness" will testify truthfully to what he has seen. Whether or not it makes an elegant, technically correct logical argument is not the witness's job - all the witness has to do tell the truth.

Psiloiordinary said...

Come on Rich - think man.

This is pretty much red handed, caught in the act, quote mining to rival anything from a creationist.

I think you should apologise to Isaac.

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

This is pretty much red handed, caught in the act, quote mining to rival anything from a creationist.

I think you should apologise to Isaac.
Wha Fo'?

If I have mischaracterized what was written, you may have a point. But I didn't.

And what's with the attempt to lump me in with creationists?

More to the point:

Isaac:

I still reject your attempted example. What was being left out was irrelevant to the point being made. That point was that sometimes placebos work. The fact that there are other remedies that also work is irrelevant to the point being made. The fact that certain facts may have been left out does not address the truth of whether or not placebos have been observed to 'work'. This does not hinge on those other facts, but upon the truth of the observation.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > You know what you just admitted?

We can all see what I said - "[special pleading] isn't about the truth of the words that were said in the statement..."

If the words that were said in the statement are not true then we don't need to bother about "special pleading", we can immediately reject the statement outright.

We only need to bother about "special pleading" when we take the words in the statement to be true - for sake of argument the truth of the words is a given.

"special pleading" isn't about the truth of the words that were said in the statement because that's a given.

"special pleading" is about whether significant information has been left out of the statement.



Rich G. > ... isn't about the universe of truth, ii only means not to leave out relevant truth.I have not suggested it was "about the universe of truth".

The definition I shared said '... significant information ...'.

In bold I said 'significant information is being omitted, that is "special pleading"'.



Rich G. > That point was that sometimes placebos work.The fact that there are other remedies that also work is irrelevant to the point being made.Here's what Cliff said, April 23, 2009 6:49 AM

"Supposing all beliefs in a deity are bogus. Even if that were so, is society benefited from dispelling all such beliefs when billions of people find solace and comfort in them? And some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?"

We are asked to assess benefits to society - "... is society benefited ...?"

We are not told there are other ways to obtain those benefits.

That there are other ways to obtain those benefits is relevant and significant to the assessment we're asked to make.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

We are not told there are other ways to obtain those benefits.

That there are other ways to obtain those benefits is relevant and significant to the assessment we're asked to make.


We have to be told THAT?

We all know that there are numerous ways to receive comfort, emotional strength, healing and the like. That would be restating the common and obvious human condition. Cliff wasn't stating, nor implying, that spiritual beliefs were the only way to any benefits - only that they are *one* way that *may* have *some* benefits.

A city bus MAY take me downtown, but again, it may take me somewhere else, or I may ride a bicycle. But if I do not state that there are even more alternatives, have I misled anyone with the information that I have left out? Or can't I simply say "I have taken a bus downtown." without it being taken as a 'special pleading'?

I stand by my assertion that the unstated information is irrelevant to the argument. Maye not irrelevant in an overall sense, but still irrelevant to the point being pressed.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > We have to be told THAT?

I daresay there are people who don't know all the things that you know.

So an honest witness (or philosopher) lays out the whole truth - "also working with horses is credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions, also ..."



Rich G. > Cliff wasn't stating, nor implying, that spiritual beliefs were the only way to any benefits - only that they are *one* way that *may* have *some* benefits.

We are asked to assess benefits to society - "... is society benefited ...?"

For sake of argument, say all the credited benefits can be obtained in some other way.

In that case there would be no unique benefit, and there would be no loss of benefit to society - just a different way of obtaining the benefit.

If we are to answer "... is society benefited ...?" we need all the relevant information - we haven't been given all the relevant information, we've just been given the information that promotes one answer.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Let's just quit beating that horse. I simply do not accept your line of reasoning, and the harder you try, the more unreasonable I see it becoming. For, in order to be complete, no one could make any argument or assertion at all unless he included all possible explanations and alternatives - else someone would say that relevant information was being left out. That would be the death of any dialogue.

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Perhaps you should simply write your own dictionary?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Psi:

Perhaps you should simply write your own dictionary?

Naw... I just prefer to use definitions that are, well, definite.

Cheers
Rich G.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > For, in order to be complete, ... unless he included all possible explanations and alternatives - else someone would say that relevant information was being left out.

Once more, not "unless he included all possible explanations and alternatives" but unless he included all "significant information".


In the example I asked you to consider, we were given no information at all about any alternatives.

We were just given information that promotes one answer.

The example I asked you to consider is definite.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Once more, not "unless he included all possible explanations and alternatives" but unless he included all "significant information".

And just who is going to be the arbiter who will say which information is necessary or significant?

Isaac Gouy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > And just who is going to be the arbiter who will say which information is necessary or significant?

Those who take part in the discussion.

In the example I asked you to consider, we were just given information that promotes one answer.

That's no more than we might expect from an honest salesperson.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Rich G. > And just who is going to be the arbiter who will say which information is necessary or significant?

Isaac > Those who take part in the discussion.

In the example I asked you to consider, we were just given information that promotes one answer.
So, if I follow your reasoning, I can reject (or at least challenge) the following assertions:

"Drunk drivers have been blamed for traffic fatalities"

"Cigarette smoking may cause lung cancer"

"Seatbelts save lives"

all because the relevant information about other ways of obtaining similar results has been conveniently left out. i.e. What else kills people in traffic crashes? Are there other causes of lung cancer? What else can I do to save my life?

You gotta be consistent here.

I thought the whole point of your initial definition was neglecting to state information that is REQUIRED, to make the assertion true for one person and not for another, not simply leaving out potential alternative explanations that apply to everyone.

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > So, if I follow your reasoning...

Let's break the example down:

#1 "...is society benefited from dispelling all such beliefs ...?"

#2 "...billions of people find solace and comfort in them..."

#3 "...some such beliefs have been credited (by some) for mental and physical healing, and overcoming destructive addictions?"


Here's the definition:

"... when we selectively omit significant information because it would weigh against a position we are promoting. The result of those omissions is a serious distortion of the subject under discussion."


The "subject under discussion" is #1.

We are given some "significant information" #2 and #3 all of which weighs for one position on the "subject under discussion".

(The position that society is not "benefited from dispelling all such beliefs" because benefits asserted in #2 and #3 are lost.)

We are not given any "significant information" that weighs against that position on the "subject under discussion".


If there really is no "significant information" that weighs against that position, then nothing significant has been omitted and this is not an example of "special pleading".

However, if (just to take the obvious case) the benefits asserted in #2 and #3 could be obtained in other ways rather than lost, then "significant information" that weighs against that position has been omitted and this is an example of "special pleading".



(The assertions you listed seem out of context, without any "subject under discussion".)

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Let's cut to the heart of it all...

What *is* your dogma?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. as I said "on the charitable assumption that you would like to understand the philosophy professor's definition that I shared, I will try to help."

Your statement makes clear that you are uninterested in understanding the philosophy professor's definition.

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

Not his. Yours.

What is *your* dogma?

Isaac Gouy said...

Rich G. > Not his. Yours.

As I've said, you'll find the definition on page 127 of the philosophy professor's book Being Logical.

I can only claim credit for pointing out his definition.



Rich G. > What is *your* dogma?

It seems clear that you want to quarrel about something.

It isn't clear to me what you want to quarrel about or why I should be interested.

Psiloiordinary said...

As a deceptively light aside I would comment;

"ooh ooh ooh the funky gibbon"

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Isaac:

As I've said, you'll find the definition...

My question was more global than that. What is your underlying assumption about life, the universe and everything?

Isaac Gouy said...

For my part, I apologize to Cliff Martin for hogging this comment stream for the last two weeks.

Whatever charitable impulse was involved (in attempting to make a simple concept clear) should have been balanced by whether it was an appropriate thing to do on someone else's personal blog.

Psiloiordinary said...

Isaac,

For my part I commend your patience and persistence.

Logical argument married with politeness, a patient approach and a willingness to be lead around the houses and yet try to keep to the point simply does not work with everyone.

Nice try though.

Rich,

Thanks for a fascinating glimpse into your way of looking at the world.

Regards,

Psi

Psiloiordinary said...

BTW Cliff,

This video summarises our discussions so far about your reasons for belief;

The Great DebateAre you going to cover off why you have your particular religion anytime soon?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

I've been drawn into the TV show LOST, and there is a thread on LostPedia regarding the season finale that is currently discussing many of the ideas that have been posted here. Is Jacob symbolic of God/Jesus/Set/(?), and is he good/evil/morally ambiguous? To what extent are the themes drawn from Egyptian/Greek/Roman/Christian mythology?

Thoughts anyone?

Psiloiordinary said...

Hi Rich,

Surely you can't be saying you think that christianity is a myth along with those others?

Just a slip of the brain?

Regards,

Psi

Rich G. said...

Hi, Psi!

Surely you can't be saying you think that christianity is a myth along with those others?If you use "myth" in the sense of "ancient story" rather than "imaginary fairy-tale", I'm OK with it.

From Wikipedia:
The term "mythology" sometimes refers to the study of myths and sometimes refers to a body of myths.[1][2] For example, comparative mythology is the study of connections between myths from different cultures,[3] whereas Greek mythology is the body of myths from ancient Greece. The term "myth" is often used colloquially to refer to a false story;[4][5] however, the academic use of the term generally does not refer to truth or falsity.[5][6] In the field of folkloristics, a myth is conventionally defined as a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form.[7][6][8] Many scholars in other academic fields use the term "myth" in somewhat different ways.[8][9][10] In a very broad sense, the term can refer to any traditional story.[11][12][13]Rich G.